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[RetroGamingUK]

One aspect that’s not been compared yet are the controllers.

While I’ve got a lot of love and nostalgia for the Saturn I have to say I’m not a fan of the controllers

The triggers don’t really feel clicky unless pressed in the middle and the overall ergonomics don’t feel right, the back is flat and there’s nothing to grip your remaining fingers to. The thing always gives me cramp after an hour. The MegaDrive style Dpad is great mind you.

The PlayStation (I only have the DualShock) controller, on the other hand, feels very comfortable. Handles are thicker than the 1994 controller and it just moulds to the hands. Even the shoulder buttons being raised on stalks feels right. No cramp whatsoever for prolonged play. D-pad doesn’t feel as nice as the Saturn though.

 

[SweetTooth]

Sato was an idiot. There's no way to forgive him, after he put in all those microchips and at the end of the day Sega Saturn being a weak PlayStation with 15-20fps and worse visual effects. It would have been better to have made the Saturn just for 2D or accepted working with the Silicon Graphics console. Believe me, Sega didn't go bankrupt for nothing.

 

[RetroGamingUK]

Another slight issue with the Saturn controller (which was rectified with the Dreamcast) was the 6 face buttons. There’s 3 large concave buttons with 3 small convex ones above.

Outside of the arcade where you’ll press the buttons as you would keys on a keyboard or notes on a piano it makes no sense.

An example would be Virtua Fighter 2, the default control scheme is A - block, B - punch, C - kick, many moves require you to press both A and C, resulting in you carrying out nonsense like this…

Which, with the default control scheme makes moves like sweeping kicks redundant as counter moves.

Again, much prefer how the PlayStation/SNES/Dreamcast/Xbox 4 button layout lets you easily press went combination of buttons with your thumb with ease.

 

[cireza]

It uses high-res output, so sharper VDP2 HUD stuff, but the VDP1 resolution used for drawing the models is 320x224. I think Fighting Vipers is the same. The big give away is that they both use Gouraud shading. Using high-res quads like Virtua Fighter 2 did limits them to palletized formats, so no shading.

Right. This is not a 320x224 game, but high-res, which was my point.

 

[cireza]

Antlers slight issue with the Saturn controller (which was rectified with the Dreamcast) was the 6 face buttons. There’s 3 large concave buttons with 3 small convex ones above.

Outside of the arcade where you’ll press the buttons as you would keys on a keyboard or notes on a piano it makes no sense.

An example would be Virtua Fighter 2, the default control scheme is A - block, B - punch, C - kick, many moves require you to press both A and C, resulting in you carrying out nonsense like this…

Which, with the default control scheme makes moves like sweeping kicks redundant as counter moves.

Again, much prefer how the PlayStation/SNES/Deeamcast/Xbox 4 button layout lets you easily press went combination of buttons with your thumb with ease.

All these games offer custom bindings. You typically piut A+B A+C B+C on X Y Z and A+B+C on L/R. Never was an issue.

It was so well rectified on Dreamcast that Capcom fighting games became unplayable.

 

[Geometric-Crusher]

A 2D Saturn would have been an even bigger disaster outside of Japan

Look at the best selling Saturn games in the US, all 3D, everyone was hyped for 3D and Saturn would have looked like a throwback.

I disagree, Rayman is a 1995 game and sold 4M on the Playstation, Donkey Kong Country 2: Diddy's Kong Quest sold 5M on the Super Nintendo, Sonic 3D Blast despite being a bad game from 1996 sold 700,000, Yoshi's Story 1997 sold almost 3M on the Nintendo 64.

Man, there was a lot of 2D game consumer audience. Yes 3d was the new thing but everything in life is a matter of opportunity, a nextgen 2D console with the capacity to run 300 quads per frame could run Resident Evil, this game sold 5M on the ps1.

I can guarantee this would make the Sega Saturn cheaper and very powerful, all good games you know would be present and the bad ps1 and Model 2 ports would be out.

 

[BlackTron]

Antlers slight issue with the Saturn controller (which was rectified with the Dreamcast) was the 6 face buttons. There’s 3 large concave buttons with 3 small convex ones above.

Outside of the arcade where you’ll press the buttons as you would keys on a keyboard or notes on a piano it makes no sense.

An example would be Virtua Fighter 2, the default control scheme is A - block, B - punch, C - kick, many moves require you to press both A and C, resulting in you carrying out nonsense like this…

Which, with the default control scheme makes moves like sweeping kicks redundant as counter moves.

Again, much prefer how the PlayStation/SNES/Deeamcast/Xbox 4 button layout lets you easily press went combination of buttons with your thumb with ease.

Nintendo 64 had the ideal 6 button arrangement.

 

[Alexios]

Lol, dude spent pages trashing Saturn's 2D games/advantages/ports and saying it's just as good on PS because screenshots look similar enough (like framerate and animations aren't important in 2D, only 3D) and now says it should have been 2D only. Noice.

Right. This is not a 320x224 game, but high-res, which was my point.

Looks great whatever it is.

All these games offer custom bindings. You typically piut A+B A+C B+C on X Y Z and A+B+C on L/R. Never was an issue.

I don't see how triangle + cross is more viable anyway. At least on Saturn you can "piano" the buttons if you wanna play arcade style and not have to resort to putting one of the three kicks or punches in all the 6 button fighters on shoulder buttons (but now the games are also inherently bad for not catering to 4 face buttons only, lol). Never had cramps or issues with its ace actual microswitch shoulder buttons either, that's just weird. Dude must be the only person alive to prefer the fat pad abomination. The Saturn pad is legendary to the point Mad Catz & Hori made their business to put out copies of it for fighting game (and not only) enthusiasts (and Sega a bit of a side business putting official Saturn pads on PS2 and the like) but nope, it's shit now. Guess we're retconning everything ever on the system as shit in here. Press all button combinations with one thumb, what a weird fetish. Guess d-pads are bad cos you can't press up/down/left/right at once (in modern games it's even often used as buttons). Can't press the clicky thumb sticks (or touchpad top button) and the rest simultaneously either but it's all fine I guess, somehow, the fetish only applies to non PlayStation pads...

To illustrate what I mean, if I want to carry out Lau’s sweeping kick (block + kick) on VF3, I simply do this…

Or you can press X or Y or Z or whatever else and set that to those 3 buttons on Saturn, or you can set the arrangement so X is guard, A is Punch and Y kick and do the exact same thing. It has extra buttons compared to DC, not less, lol. You don't even have to use C and Z for VF/3 button fighters.

But hey, back to how sales (and flops) are the definitive measure of quality and worth in this (and any, surely you're all listening to the musical top 10 only) industry, that's why Darkstalkers is no more. We should never have any discussion other than which system/game/pad/whatever sold more!

PS: Dino Crisis is a dead franchise too (and I had already posted it in the previous page, not often enough I guess, lol).

 

[RetroGamingUK]

Now when the Saturn launched in the west the design was altered. Comparing it to the newer pad it feels more ergonomic and fits the hands better, the rear is curved on either side and I feel no cramp after prolonged use.

Big improvement then, right? Well no, the Dpad is complete redesigned and while it’s OK for moving left to right in 2D platformers and driving games it just chafes your thumb when carrying out Dpad rotation moves in fighting games. As for the triggers, unless you press them at the rear there’s literally zero tactile feedback. Very much a case of 1 step forward 2 steps back. Sega discontinued it under a year after release, I can see why.

 

[RetroGamingUK]

Nintendo 64 had the ideal 6 button arrangement.

Again, it prohibits you from pressing all possible face button combinations by simply pressing your thumb across them. You’re forced to either bring in your index finger or forego using your thumb at all.

To illustrate what I mean, if I want to carry out Lau’s sweeping kick (block + kick) on VF3, I simply do this…

…no need to go piano mode or bring my index finger in. As for Capcom fighters, I always thought medium punch and medium kick were redundant.

Anyway, glad 6 face button controllers were consigned to the dustbin of history. 4 face buttons + 4 shoulder buttons is now the industry standard for a good reason.

 

[BlackTron]

Again, it prohibits you from pressing all possible face button combinations by simply pressing your thumb across them. You’re forced to either bring in your index finger or forego using your thumb at all.

I mean sure, but that was pretty much handled by actually thinking about button mapping. Also I could press more simultaneous buttons on N64 than Saturn with one finger. In Starfox I can still fire with A while choosing to boost or brake using C- or C+. I did similar stuff in Rogue Squadron maintaining fire while also launching missiles. Because C is above A/B instead of buttons running to the side like Saturn. Maybe not perfect, but the ideal 6 button config.

Also A/B and four C directions gave you 6 buttons with an easier to recall naming scheme than we have for four buttons today.

 

[RetroGamingUK]

Quake and Alien Ressurection both ran really well on PS1, impressive stuff




Not an FPS, but Dino Crisis doesn’t get enough credit, all polygonal with nice character models and lighting, again very impressive

 

[nkarafo]

One volunteer vs big team of well paid programmers!

Have you seen what one man volunteers have done on other platforms?

 

[digital_ghost]

I'd hope a big ass planet is more powerful than a plastic box.

 

[Parazels]

Have you seen what one man volunteers have done on other platforms?

What?

 

[nkarafo]

What?

 

[Seider]

One volunteer vs big team of well paid programmers!

Was not Sony´s Fault that there were well paid programmers doing games like Quake 2 on Playstation but not well paid programmers doing Unreal on Saturn.

Sony did well with thirds in that generation.

 

[Fafalada]

The Saturn also had much smoother Gouraud shading using additive blend where as the ps1 used multiplicative.

Assuming this isn't just word salad (I genuinely haven't seen any documentation on how Saturn does Gouraud - so I don't know) - shading is supposed to be a multiplicative blend (with the texture/source color) - anything else produces completely wrong results. So no - that's not 'cheaper/lower quality' way - it's the correct math.
It's also been done that way in every console since PS1(including N64).

The ps1's real advantage that barely anyone talks about again is its decompression engine. It could literally decompress textures on the fly so no need to store uncompressed textures in ram.

What texture compression are we talking about here? Saturn supported palletized textures as well, best I can tell they were equivalent here.
The difference was no UV mapping - so it cost a lot more vertices to draw larger areas on Saturn (or sacrifice texture quality) - but that's been mentioned in the thread already.

Using Saturns SCU DSP plus both its CPUs it could calculate geometry much faster than the ps1s gte.

I posted the math earlier in the thread - unless there's some 'hidden chips' in the Saturn PS or something, that wasn't the case.

Forward texturing with bilinear approximation which produces better perspective correction ( not as wobbly )

Best I can tell wobble is impacted by triangulation (rendering a rectangle without triangle seam in the middle has difference precision implications).
But what exactly was 'bilinear approximation'?

 

[PaintTinJr]

How you can deduce that from your blurry, low-res screenshot is quite comical.

Prettiest corridor I have ever seen !

Except that it is just a corridor, and the Shenmue video only shows very confined areas.

Also lighting is clearly baked in the textures, as Alexios said. Simply watch the video. There is nothing beyond what Baroque on Saturn displays in these interiors. Baroque has pretty high resolution textures and baked in lighting. Runs perfectly well.


No dynamic lighting on the models during 3D exploration/gameplay. Again, watch the video. No reason for this to not run on a stock Saturn if done by SEGA Japan.

Well done for holding up a comparative game that is sudo-3D(2.5D) for its environment and 2D for the character models.

And the pictures are entirely fair because they are just 1-frame of 30 for each still and by themselves they look much closer and only taking consideration of the 2secs before or afterwards does the way in which the Tomb Raider's small resolution sprite quad textures animate through the camera look completely different from the higher looking resolution textures in the Shenmue demo video.

And the idea that programmers can't abstractly deconstruct 3D graphics and make inferences from what they see is nonsense.. The picture from the shenmue demo video I've chosen looks consistent with the released DC version other than a modest bump in resolution, texture quality and geometry, which is exactly what the 32x did for the megadrive as an addo accelerator.

Put it this way, Sega with the Master System (Mark III) to Genesis(Mark V), 32x(Pluto), Saturn (Saturn), Dreamcast(Katana) and even the Xbox1 was just one continuous cross gen of development for Sega, but like the Sith's Rule of Two, games didn't have a three way cross-gen version for a native like for like version of Sega's 3D game.

So given that the OG Xbox versions of Shenmue are marginally different to the Dreamcast, in the same way that the Shenmue demo video for Saturn is marginally different to the Dreamcast. What is more likely? the Saturn Devkit with an accelerator was able to deliver something consistent with the Dreamcast and OG Xbox experience at lower quality? Or that the Saturn, Saturn Devkit with an Accelerator, Dreamcast and OG Xbox were a potential rule of four with scaled quality and performance across 4 hardware solutions that had vastly different capabilities?

 

[Alexios]

So given that the OG Xbox versions of Shenmue are marginally different to the Dreamcast, in the same way that the Shenmue demo video for Saturn is marginally different to the Dreamcast.

No clue how you find that looking marginally different to the final result on Dreamcast. Maybe programmers can infer, you certainly can't going by this. It looks completely different.

All the assets are completely different (even if remade 1:1 on DC, a la Demon's Souls PS5) rather than slightly enhanced or with additional shadows/resolution/etc. as on DC vs Xbox.

And that's definitely not real dynamic lighting/shadowing coming from a window. Zero changes to the model which seems fullbright at all times (even in the "dark" in Ren's hideout).

Just like the lighting on the table he drops the cassette tapes on is just drawn on the table (and the room is fully bright at that point as well so there'd be no need to have it on there).

Dang, if this video hadn't marked which version is which I literally couldn't tell you. Identical


Better quality comparison of DC vs Saturn here imo but without that one corridor shot.

Totally the same situation ey, trust him, he's a programmer and can infer things duh

 

[PaintTinJr]

I wonder if, instead of raising the throughput, it could be used as they suggested in that thread (there is a link to an interview with a dev from Treasure that used it quite a bit) to support more lights/more advanced lighting (as people said on N64 not more pixels but higher quality pixels ).

Thanks for the practical PS example there .

For those interested, a 120+ pages document on the GTE and optimisations suggested to solve problems such as texture warping and near plane clipping issues: https://psx.arthus.net/sdk/Psy-Q/DOCS/TRAINING/FALL96/gte.pdf

Really appreciated the link. This part is really does drive home the texturing point.

 

[PaintTinJr]

No clue how you find that looking marginally different to the final result on Dreamcast. Maybe programmers can infer, you certainly can't going by this. It looks completely different.

All the assets are completely different (even if remade 1:1 on DC, a la Demon's Souls PS5) rather than slightly enhanced or with additional shadows/resolution/etc. as on DC vs Xbox.

And that's definitely not real dynamic lighting/shadowing coming from a window. Zero changes to the model which seems fullbright at all times (even in the "dark" in Ren's hideout).

Watch Ryo's stiff animation, the tracking camera in the video section from the still I captured, it is all identical to the released product on those two consoles.

edit:

See you edited your reply, now lets take a screenshot from that second video comparison to prove the dreamcasr vs xbox difference it consistent with what CoPilot says is different

So yeah, close enough that they do need labelled. You forget some of us do remember trying these games on each platform first hand, and the old Shenmue Demo video on Saturn doesn't look like comparing 2D Genesis VF2 to 3D Saturn VF2

 

[PaintTinJr]

Yea good topology helps - although there's also texture changes and other things that play into it. But as I said - for optimizing transforms alone - indexing brings that number even further down (theoretical max is 1 vertex for every 2 polygons). Though that might make the process memory-bound - but it really depends what bottleneck you run into I guess.

Sorry, I stupidly skim read the details of what you wrote when replying and failed to make the connection it wasn't so much throwing them down the pipeline with minimal batches, but the actual instruction cost per primitive in each batch being processed.

And as you also said texturing issues - as highlighted in the dev document Panajev2001a linked - would definitely impact that efficiency when adding primitives for the active division method to alleviate heavy texture warping.

Do you think the cost of transforming geometry was a big reason why in games like Tomb Raider the chase cam seems to hold position for a few seconds before moving to follow, so that the scenery and camera relationship are fixed for that period which should allow the same transformed vertices to be reused between 30 - 120 franes giving a speed up?

 

[s_mirage]

Assuming this isn't just word salad (I genuinely haven't seen any documentation on how Saturn does Gouraud - so I don't know) - shading is supposed to be a multiplicative blend (with the texture/source color) - anything else produces completely wrong results. So no - that's not 'cheaper/lower quality' way - it's the correct math.
It's also been done that way in every console since PS1(including N64).

Some of that sounds like stuff from the Segaretro console comparison page, which I believe is questionable.

About Gouraud shading. I was going to try to post some of what the manual said, but it'll probably be easier to read it yourself: https://segaretro.org/images/8/8b/ST-013-R3-061694.pdf

If I understand it correctly, you basically specify an RGB value to add or subtract to/from the RGB values at each vertex of a quad, and VDP1 interpolates the values across the quad. I guess that's what's meant by "additive".

Now my knowledge is pretty damn limited here, but my understanding is that the Playstation's GTE had built-in support for calculating three directional light sources, is that correct? I assume that the Saturn would have to perform all such calculations with custom engine code. I wonder if that's part of the reason why some Saturn games seem to use lighting baked into the textures and less use Gouraud than on the Playstation.

 

[TGO]

John is making a PS1 vs Saturn currently
But he has touched on it with his Retro Tomb Raider Analysis

Which when you see how to Sega Saturn renders this topic becomes nonsense.
But maybe John will find something new in his new video he is doing.
Also this is his game on both machines

 

[Alexios]

Pretty incomplete comparison without noting such massive differences between versions. But yes, it's overall better on PlayStation. Still, it likely could have been better on Saturn too, if not to the same degree. And it's far from bad, just as it's not bad on PS because 3dfx got better.

Saturn up, PlayStation down. Whole training room and the music room past it, visible on Saturn to the left, and to the right again rendered/visible from the floor below through the door above. Clearly overkill for most of the game but also clearly hampering the visuals in open rooms on PS (and hampering Saturn fps).

Perfect spot for it with the room past the corridor almost fully rendered on Saturn from the start of the corridor at the timestamp and on PlayStation the blackness only begins pulling back right before exiting the corridor (and other places in this and other videos but that's a good spot for it there).

Not sure what "how to Saturn renders" means, what do people think they're seeing when the emulator settings throw the scene textures without perspective correction. O noes iz not reel 3D cuz it looks 2D, a 3D Lara doesn't exist in my TV for reelz on Saturn?

It rendered in 3D but not the same way the rest of the industry was

The rest of the industry adopted as standard the things that were most successful, not vice versa. Quad rendering and all kinds of other things were not at all uncommon when Saturn came out and its architecture for 3D was very similar (but not nearly as powerful) to widespread SEGA arcades.

On PC alone there were so many different "standards" (ie nothing was "standard") that period, look at what your own video says regarding GPU accelerated PC versions and which "won" (3dfx back then). Nvidia's first GPU, NV1, rendered in quads a whole year after Saturn's launch, even.

PS's way of doing 2D was also far from "standard" and its 3D was very, very quickly outdated in pretty much every way but kept being the lowest common denominator for games because of how popular it was until we got the PS2. Retcon history/reality some more, why don't you?

This thread no longer makes sense

Stopped making sense the minute you posted your unfounded bs, indeed.

So yeah, close enough that they do need labelled.

Yes, that was my point, that DC to Xbox is totally the same game, with some enhancements here and there. It's an enhanced port to a more powerful platform, a far cry from the difference between the Saturn and final result on DC which is in fact a completely different looking game, from the textures to the (lack of) lighting, level geometry, character/prop models, animations and performance. From it's identical you've lowered your "standards" down to how 1 second of camera movement and a walk cycle appear similar. Not sure what you think was the "gotcha" here but congrats.

I guess these are equally the same game and tech. Just less geometry (so no uneven arenas), lighting, lower quality models, etc., etc., but yeah, it even retains the same performance and does have some lighting unlike the Shenmue demo, they must have embedded an extra chip on the disc!!!1

 

[Geometric-Crusher]

At the end of the day, the Sega Saturn's difficulty in programming is just a smokescreen to hide the fact that the console is half a gen behind the Playstation

This thread no longer makes sense, argonaut founder is wrong.

 

[TGO]

Not sure what "how to Saturn renders" means, what do people think they're seeing when the emulator settings throw the scene textures without perspective correction. O noes iz not reel 3D cuz it looks 2D, a 3D Lara doesn't exist in my TV for reelz on Saturn?

It rendered in 3D but not the same way the rest of the industry was, but the biggest difference and what you're seeing without perspective correction was forward rendering vs rasterization
But rendering in Tri was faster and more effective with the lower polygon budget those machines had and so was rasterization
This is why it was used, But because Saturn couldn't do that it pretty much used whatever power it had to match it and using forward rendering which no one was using meant the Devs had to build a engine for their game to emulate it for the Sega Saturn which was a pain,
Theoretically you could say the Sega Saturn was more powerful if they was both using Quads & forward rendering methods but the method the PSX use helped it render more polygons and render them faster and had better results.

Just to be clear, if the Sega Saturn had the power and budget while using it's architecture Vs the PSX it would be a different story, but it just didn't.

 

[cartman414]

One aspect that’s not been compared yet are the controllers.

While I’ve got a lot of love and nostalgia for the Saturn I have to say I’m not a fan of the controllers

The triggers don’t really feel clicky unless pressed in the middle and the overall ergonomics don’t feel right, the back is flat and there’s nothing to grip your remaining fingers to. The thing always gives me cramp after an hour. The MegaDrive style Dpad is great mind you.

The PlayStation (I only have the DualShock) controller, on the other hand, feels very comfortable. Handles are thicker than the 1994 controller and it just moulds to the hands. Even the shoulder buttons being raised on stalks feels right. No cramp whatsoever for prolonged play. D-pad doesn’t feel as nice as the Saturn though.

Hard disagree. The split d-pad chafed and the handles were too short, forcing a crampy grip. The controller was made for baby hands.

 

[cartman414]

Again, it prohibits you from pressing all possible face button combinations by simply pressing your thumb across them. You’re forced to either bring in your index finger or forego using your thumb at all.

To illustrate what I mean, if I want to carry out Lau’s sweeping kick (block + kick) on VF3, I simply do this…

…no need to go piano mode or bring my index finger in. As for Capcom fighters, I always thought medium punch and medium kick were redundant.

Anyway, glad 6 face button controllers were consigned to the dustbin of history. 4 face buttons + 4 shoulder buttons is now the industry standard for a good reason.

Ugh, such a downgrade from the Saturn 3d pad. Supremely less ergonomic, ruined the perfection of the d-pad, chiclet sized buttons, and two less of them, triggers that had too much travel.

It's not a terrible pad, but it was obviously designed by committee.

 

[Team Andromeda]

Another slight issue with the Saturn controller (which was rectified with the Dreamcast) was the 6 face buttons. There’s 3 large concave buttons with 3 small convex ones above.

Outside of the arcade where you’ll press the buttons as you would keys on a keyboard or notes on a piano it makes no sense.

An example would be Virtua Fighter 2, the default control scheme is A - block, B - punch, C - kick, many moves require you to press both A and C, resulting in you carrying out nonsense like this…

Which, with the default control scheme makes moves like sweeping kicks redundant as counter moves.

Again, much prefer how the PlayStation/SNES/Dreamcast/Xbox 4 button layout lets you easily press went combination of buttons with your thumb with ease.

Are you for real ? .

Overlooking the ABC layout is true to the Arcade game on which its based on.
In games like VF, you can assign the X, Y, and Z buttons to perform more complex moves *rollseyes*

 

[Panajev2001a]

What texture compression are we talking about here?

PS1 had an MJPEG decoder, MDEC, right? I wonder if it was crazy to use for texturing or if it was almost as approachable as the IPU in PS2 for texturing…

 

[Panajev2001a]

Some of that sounds like stuff from the Segaretro console comparison page, which I believe is questionable.

About Gouraud shading. I was going to try to post some of what the manual said, but it'll probably be easier to read it yourself: https://segaretro.org/images/8/8b/ST-013-R3-061694.pdf

If I understand it correctly, you basically specify an RGB value to add or subtract to/from the RGB values at each vertex of a quad, and VDP1 interpolates the values across the quad. I guess that's what's meant by "additive".

Now my knowledge is pretty damn limited here, but my understanding is that the Playstation's GTE had built-in support for calculating three directional light sources, is that correct? I assume that the Saturn would have to perform all such calculations with custom engine code. I wonder if that's part of the reason why some Saturn games seem to use lighting baked into the textures and less use Gouraud than on the Playstation.

Indeed there is support in the GTE libraries for local lights calculations: https://psx.arthus.net/sdk/Psy-Q/DOCS/TRAINING/FALL96/gte.pdf

 

[Lysandros]

PS1 had an MJPEG decoder, MDEC, right? I wonder if it was crazy to use for texturing or if it was almost as approachable as the IPU in PS2 for texturing…

I remember reading that the CPU embedded 80 MIPS MDEC block was very powerful (GTE is 66 MIPS and the RISC core itself is 30 MIPS to put into perspective but of course this isn't apples to apples) and it was actively used in some games in gameplay besides providing high quality FMV playback but i don't remember the specifics.

 

[cireza]

The picture from the shenmue demo video I've chosen looks consistent with the released DC version other than a modest bump in resolution, texture quality and geometry, which is exactly what the 32x did for the megadrive as an addo accelerator.

You can't tell that Ryo has been entirely remade between Saturn and Dreamcast lol ?

32X did not provide a bump in resolution, texture as a concept was non-existant on the MegaDrive as well as any kind of 3D geometry. Amazing example.

 

[squidilix]

John is making a PS1 vs Saturn currently
But he has touched on it with his Retro Tomb Raider Analysis

Which when you see how to Sega Saturn renders this topic becomes nonsense.
But maybe John will find something new in his new video he is doing.
Also this is his game on both machines

VCDECIDE is a bullshit channel, a big plateform warrior and playing on emulator for retro console (wich is increase the lack of Zbuffer on Saturn/PlayStation)

 

[PaintTinJr]

You can't tell that Ryo has been entirely remade between Saturn and Dreamcast lol ?

The rigging is identical in the shot of gameplay in the Shenmue Demo video on Saturn to the finished DC game, Changing the model while still maintaining all the same processing framework/subsystems like camera, animation means the games are the same under the hood, unlike say a comparison of a typical 2X 48K, c64, Amstrad CPC/ ST game like Outrun where each of the games was remade by different people and look that way as a set.

This is the start of renderers getting specifically decoupled from game engines

edit:

32X did not provide a bump in resolution, texture as a concept was non-existant on the MegaDrive as well as any kind of 3D geometry. Amazing example.

And why would it, 32x was to bridge a paradigm shift like the Argonaut engineered SuperFX chips, where the chip on the game was essentially the console and the SNES was just a box. So why would you expect a largely 3D accelerator board as the base camp of a paradigm shift to be a 1:1 for a Saturn devkit accelerator board?

 

[cireza]

And why would it

Yeah great question, that's why I asked as you were saying it actually did exactly that here :

a modest bump in resolution, texture quality and geometry, which is exactly what the 32x did for the megadrive as an addo accelerator.

where the chip on the game was essentially the console and the SNES was just a box

Also this is overall false. The console is not a "box", whatever does this means, in the case of the FX, SVP or 32X games. You can't achieve anything with the chip/add-on by itself. The 32X is largely incapable of pushing full 3D in good conditions and you require the MegaDrive to fill a lot of the pixels if you want a decent framerate. FX games run at 15fps because of this, and the 32X doesn't fare much better in full 3D games. This is, in a way, a very similar setup to the Saturn VDP1 + VDP2, especially considering that both 32X and Saturn had the two SH2 CPUs, which further refutes the absurd theory that the second one was added "late", whatever "late" means by the way.

These chips and add-ons are meant to be used as much as the console, especially for the 32X. After all it is the console doing the output in the case of the FX/SVP, while the chips are calculating the 3D tiles in a single 16 colors palette and streaming them to the memory. Obviously for full 3D games, the game logic needs to be on the side of the chip doing the 3D visuals, however for other games on 32X I would not be surprised to see the game logic actually happening on the MegaDrive itself, especially when the background is generated by the MegaDrive and includes collision detection and so on. Knuckles Chaotix matches exactly this example, and the 32X is mainly handling sprites with some visual effects on them, but I am expecting the MegaDrive to actually do the collision work. Probably true for a lot of ports MD -> 32X.

Also these chips don't have video output, the 32X does. And these chips don't generate the audio either, the 32X can enhance it. And they don't get the controller inputs either. So the console is not a "box" and you have to use it.

Add-ons were always designed to work with the base console, not replace it. Because otherwise, you make a new console.

 

[RoboFu]

I like how modern gaming sucks so bad that this thread can go on for weeks.

 

[Fafalada]

If I understand it correctly, you basically specify an RGB value to add or subtract to/from the RGB values at each vertex of a quad, and VDP1 interpolates the values across the quad. I guess that's what's meant by "additive".

Having read the doc now (thanks for the link) you're right, that's exactly what's described.
And going back to my previous post - this was indeed mathematically the incorrect way to compute shading. Between the wonky math and how complex it is to setup (having to copy vertex color values into separate area of memory for each polygon), I'm not surprised it was rarely used on Saturn. The document is pretty clear - you'd only want to use this to change luminance (ie. white/colorless Gouraud shading) as anything else would just generate wrong results - unlike the competing consoles where colored vertex lights were common place precisely thanks to advent of Gouraud shading.

Off topic but the limitation reminds me a lot of what happened to colored lightmaps on PS2 - where Alpha blend circuit lacked one of the modes needed for it, so likewise - it was barely used on the machine.

Now my knowledge is pretty damn limited here, but my understanding is that the Playstation's GTE had built-in support for calculating three directional light sources, is that correct?

It's a little more - nuanced than that.
GTE accelerated a variety of vector operations - and some (mostly those that relied on division) were offered in 1x / 3x mode (3x being more efficient due to the SIMD nature of the unit).
Ie. - anything like Normalization, perspective divide, depth-cueing would perform optimally with 3x operation, where you'd get 3 vectors processed for less than cost of 2, when done individually.
Libraries on offer had similarly adopted more complex functions (such as complete local-light computation) in 1x/3x variants.

To be clear - there was nothing specific about 'light source support' in the hardware at all, or numbers of sources used - you could do 1 just as fine as 30 - the triplet-thing was just for efficiency. Eg. a set of 3-4 directional light-sources boils down to two matrix multiplies + saturation, all of which were hardware accelerated operations. Local lights (that Panajev referenced had specific Library instructions) is a bit more complex mix of Matrix transforms + normalization/divide operations.
Basically - GTE wasn't a fixed-function hardware accelerator - it was more of a prototypical shader-unit.

I assume that the Saturn would have to perform all such calculations with custom engine code. I wonder if that's part of the reason why some Saturn games seem to use lighting baked into the textures and less use Gouraud than on the Playstation.

As I note above - it's custom code in either case (PS1 libraries just offered better support for complex operations). And I comment above why I think Gouraud was impractical on Saturn (especially for dynamic lights).
Performance might be another reason of course - it does seem like Saturn had distinctly less programmable geometry-math throughput available.

 

[Horseganador]

 

[squidilix]

49:35 is for our friend Parazels
"Distortion doest exist on Saturn"

 

[Lysandros]

Just as an additional note, John is rather a Saturn boy akin to Richard Leadbetter and doesn't have a particulary high esteem for PS1 hardware itself by his own admission. He is quite fond of its library though. Didn't watch the video yet but that would be just 'his' layman take on the matter ultimately.

 

[v1oz]

Again, it prohibits you from pressing all possible face button combinations by simply pressing your thumb across them. You’re forced to either bring in your index finger or forego using your thumb at all.

To illustrate what I mean, if I want to carry out Lau’s sweeping kick (block + kick) on VF3, I simply do this…

…no need to go piano mode or bring my index finger in. As for Capcom fighters, I always thought medium punch and medium kick were redundant.

Anyway, glad 6 face button controllers were consigned to the dustbin of history. 4 face buttons + 4 shoulder buttons is now the industry standard for a good reason.

I understand your perspective, but I generally prefer not to use shoulder buttons for fighting games. The six-face-button gamepad layout has become a universal standard for this genre, which is why the Sega Saturn pad remains popular for 2D and fighting games.

Personally, I can execute all the button combinations using just my thumb on the N64 controller. The button combinations available on the SNES controller still work for me on the N64.

In my opinion, the PlayStation controller is essentially a SNES controller with double the shoulder buttons and handles. The cross key d-pad and button layout are similar to the SNES controller. Later in the generation, they introduced rumble and analog sticks, which were borrowed from the N64. However, similar to how they doubled the shoulder buttons, they also added a second analog stick.

 

[s_mirage]

PS1 had an MJPEG decoder, MDEC, right? I wonder if it was crazy to use for texturing or if it was almost as approachable as the IPU in PS2 for texturing…

One use I know of was in the Resident Evil games for the backgrounds, fitting more of them into RAM/on the disc at higher quality than possible otherwise. That was the apparently the reason the RE2 Saturn port was canned: no equivalent decoding hardware and likely not enough RAM to store uncompressed backgrounds, even if reduced to 256 colours as they were for RE1, or to use as a buffer to decompress into if the backgrounds retained the compressed format. MDEC could decompress directly into the PS1's VRAM AFAIK, so no such buffer was needed.

 

[SweetTooth]

John DF video comes at the right time to show how inefficient Saturn was. PlayStation simply wiped it in 3D games.

 

[Parazels]

49:35 is for our friend Parazels
"Distortion doest exist on Saturn"

 

[SweetTooth]

Just by looking at the pictures and car model you know that Saturn is less capable in 3D, and when you add fps it becomes more clear.

I can tolerate some wobbly textures for better looking and better performing games. The world knew that too back then looking at the sales numbers.

 

[PaintTinJr]

...


Also this is overall false. The console is not a "box", whatever does this means, in the case of the FX, SVP or 32X games. You can't achieve anything with the chip/add-on by itself. The 32X is largely incapable of pushing full 3D in good conditions and you require the MegaDrive to fill a lot of the pixels if you want a decent framerate. FX games run at 15fps because of this, and the 32X doesn't fare much better in full 3D games. This is, in a way, a very similar setup to the Saturn VDP1 + VDP2, especially considering that both 32X and Saturn had the two SH2 CPUs, which further refutes the absurd theory that the second one was added "late", whatever "late" means by the way.

These chips and add-ons are meant to be used as much as the console, especially for the 32X. After all it is the console doing the output in the case of the FX/SVP, while the chips are calculating the 3D tiles in a single 16 colors palette and streaming them to the memory. Obviously for full 3D games, the game logic needs to be on the side of the chip doing the 3D visuals, however for other games on 32X I would not be surprised to see the game logic actually happening on the MegaDrive itself, especially when the background is generated by the MegaDrive and includes collision detection and so on. Knuckles Chaotix matches exactly this example, and the 32X is mainly handling sprites with some visual effects on them, but I am expecting the MegaDrive to actually do the collision work. Probably true for a lot of ports MD -> 32X.

Also these chips don't have video output, the 32X does. And these chips don't generate the audio either, the 32X can enhance it. And they don't get the controller inputs either. So the console is not a "box" and you have to use it.

Add-ons were always designed to work with the base console, not replace it. Because otherwise, you make a new console.

Arwing Landing - The Ultimate Star Fox Source

"We used to joke (internally, of course) that the SNES box was the power supply for the Super FX chip, because the entire game code, including all 3D graphics, physics, gameplay and so on, ran on the Super FX and the SNES simply displayed the results on screen."

 

[cireza]

Arwing Landing - The Ultimate Star Fox Source

"We used to joke (internally, of course) that the SNES box was the power supply for the Super FX chip, because the entire game code, including all 3D graphics, physics, gameplay and so on, ran on the Super FX and the SNES simply displayed the results on screen."

Nothing to respond to my post overall, and cherry-picked one example (a joke, by the way, so obviously not objective), which doesn't goes against anything I said, and admits the SNES is still absolutely mandatory to run the game. Amazing rebuttal.