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[kevboard]

It seemed crazy at the time, and it wasn't an option if you wanted to do split-screen with more than 2 players. Way ahead of its time and laughed at for being ridiculous, but after a little getting used to it really worked well and just made sense. I still prefer M&K for shooters, but it made first person games on console a reality.

well yeah, but again, there also was an option to use the Dpad for movement

 

[nkarafo]

Having some weird dual-controller setup is not nearly the same thing as the modern FPS setup. Those controllers were ridiculously built, and two of those would make the massive OG Xbox controller look tame by comparison. Sony was the first to release the dual analog controller which paved the way for Bungie to nail the FPS controls with Halo. I respect your opinion, OP. I just heavily disagree that Turok/Goldeneye should receive any credit for how FPS controls turned out.

"Introduced" to me means the ones who invented it, not the ones who popularized it. Was DOOM the first FPS game? No, there were plenty before it but it was the game that popularized the genre to the masses. Was Street Fighter 2 the first VS fighting game? No, again just the one that made the genre popular. Same thing applies here. Halo didn't invent those controls nor did Alien Resurrection. So far the first game that did this seems to be Goldeneye. It didn't popularize the control method ofc, i mean hardly anyone used it. But it was there. It introduced it for those few who wanted to test it.

Also, doing this without a dual analog controller shows how confident they were about the idea being a viable option and wanted to show it off regardless.

But either way that's just the dual analog option. The controller scheme exists and it's the same with just the d-pad+stick, you get digital movement like WASD but the control scheme is the same as modern. And the first game i know of having this was Turok and it was also the default. I think it deserves some credit for that.

 

[GloveSlap]

I used the solitaire controls at the time in Goldeneye, but it felt way better to use the yellow c buttons to move IMO.

I actually really like the N64 controller. It's just a shame the analog stick wore out so easily.

 

[IFireflyl]

you are wrong.

many N64 shooters also let you move with the Dpad while aiming with the stick. and games like Quake 64 play basically identically to a modern shooter.
the only difference being that your movement was on a dpad instead of a left stick, but that's hardly disqualifying them, as on a Mouse and Keyboard you also have digital movement

Still a two stick solution to play a FPS…They were the first ones in implement it. The two stick controllers is another topic.

Ignore the gimmick two control Golden Eye. Ignore the N64's retarded control. We are talking about button mapping here, not the quality, or comfortability of a controller. Take a look at what OP was talking about when it comes to button mapping, and tell us how that is that not what bungie was already doing with halo?

"Introduced" to me means the ones who invented it, not the ones who popularized it. Was DOOM the first FPS game? No, there were plenty before it but it was the game that popularized the genre to the masses. Was Street Fighter 2 the first VS fighting game? No, again just the one that made the genre popular. Same thing applies here. Halo didn't invent those controls nor did Alien Resurrection. So far the first game that did this seems to be Goldeneye. It didn't popularize the control method ofc, i mean hardly anyone used it. But it was there. It introduced it for those few who wanted to test it.

Also, doing this without a dual analog controller shows how confident they were about the idea being a viable option and wanted to show it off regardless.

Just so you all know, I'm not trying to change anyone's mind. I will always see the N64 controller as a a crappy design, and requiring two of those crummy controllers to (poorly) simulate modern FPS controls/controllers seems ridiculous to me.

I still think it's an interesting thread that showcases a unique way of approaching gameplay, but I don't see this gimmick as the invention of modern FPS controls. That, to me, was solely Halo.

Although I am now remembering (or maybe misremembering?) that Unreal Tournament was on PlayStation 2, and I think they utilized this before Halo, though Halo's implementation was better.

 

[YCoCg]

Alien Resurrection on PS1 was the TRUE first debut of the modern FPS design if we're talking twin sticks and how they're used, previous attempts were still mixing things with the dpad, Goldeneye included.

 

[nkarafo]

I used the solitaire controls at the time in Goldeneye, but it felt way better to use the yellow c buttons to move IMO.

The reason i preferred holding the left side to use the d-pad was because i got used to the WASD+mouse controls on PC. So left hand for movement and right hand for aiming/turn.

I remember loading Turok for the first time and being annoyed about the controls being "reversed" so i just thought maybe i could just use the d-pad? And it worked so i used those same controls for the rest of N64's life and thankfully, most FPS games could be controlled that way.

Alien Resurrection on PS1 was the TRUE first debut of the modern FPS design if we're talking twin sticks and how they're used, previous attempts were still mixing things with the dpad, Goldeneye included.

If you use the two controller option it doesn't mix the d-pad, it uses the two sticks exactly like a modern shooter.

Excluding the lack of a twin stick single controller, Goldeneye does the same thing Halo or Alien Resurrection does under the hood but in 1997. So that was the one that invented those controls.

 

[kevboard]

Just so you all know, I'm not trying to change anyone's mind. I will always see the N64 controller as a a crappy design, and requiring two of those crummy controllers to (poorly) simulate modern FPS controls/controllers seems ridiculous to me.

I told you that you don't need 2. you need 1. the only difference is that instead of a left stick you then have a Dpad, which is in essence still the same idea and layout.

 

[jufonuk]

Yeah those two started it.

 

[yurinka]

Nah, they did start with the PlayStation 1 Dual Analog Controller, and later with the first Dual Shock:

 

[GloveSlap]

The reason i preferred holding the left side to use the d-pad was because i got used to the WASD+mouse controls on PC. So left hand for movement and right hand for aiming/turn.

I remember loading Turok for the first time and being annoyed about the controls being "reversed" so i just thought maybe i could just use the d-pad? And it worked so i used those same controls for the rest of N64's life and thankfully, most FPS games could be controlled that way.

Yeah, i could see that. I'm sure it would feel weird for me to back to it after having the aiming be on the right for all console fps the last 20+ years.

 

[nkarafo]

Nah, they did start with the PlayStation 1 Dual Analog Controller, and later with the first Dual Shock:

This is not a topic about the first dual analog controller.

It's a topic about the first games that used modern controls (including dual analog controls).

 

[YCoCg]

If you use the two controller option it doesn't mix the d-pad, it uses the two sticks exactly like a modern shooter.

Excluding the lack of a twin stick single controller, Goldeneye does the same thing Halo or Alien Resurrection does under the hood but in 1997. So that was the one that invented those controls.

I mean I guess, the basis is there but it still required extra hardware and a specific mapping layout that wasn't the "intended" design way to p[lay the game, that's why I'd count Alien as the first as the game was designed for that play style and it's on one controller.

 

[kevboard]

I mean I guess, the basis is there but it still required extra hardware and a specific mapping layout that wasn't the "intended" design way to p[lay the game, that's why I'd count Alien as the first as the game was designed for that play style and it's on one controller.

Turok released in 1997 and literally only has 2 settings. 1: move with the C buttons and aim with the stick, or 2: move with the dpad and aim with the stick.

the first N64 shooter and 3 years before Alien released. and the only 2 options you had is either a left handed or a right handed version of modern shooter controls.

and here is Quake 2, 1999:

(the only difference between Style C in this image and the default Style A, is that Style A has the Y axis inverted)

Quake 1, which released 1998 on N64, also had the same controls btw.

 

[SScorpio]

The reason i preferred holding the left side to use the d-pad was because i got used to the WASD+mouse controls on PC. So left hand for movement and right hand for aiming/turn.

I remember loading Turok for the first time and being annoyed about the controls being "reversed" so i just thought maybe i could just use the d-pad? And it worked so i used those same controls for the rest of N64's life and thankfully, most FPS games could be controlled that way.

I wouldn't say that WASD + mouse was the standard for PC at that time.

Turok came out in '97, while Quake was '96 and required setting console commands to use mouse look. I believe it was Tresh winning Quakecon and showing us all the light.

That said there was attempts to use a keyboard and joystick for FPS games before that. Descent is the major one that comes to mind. Though some people did attempt joystick and mouse but that never took off.

Modern source ports blur things, few people were using WASD + mouse in Doom and Wolfenstein. Heck the arrow keys for movement with space to shoot was much more common.

 

[nkarafo]

I mean I guess, the basis is there but it still required extra hardware and a specific mapping layout that wasn't the "intended" design way to p[lay the game, that's why I'd count Alien as the first as the game was designed for that play style and it's on one controller.

Well, Alien Resurrection also needed "extra hardware" since the dual shock was not the standard PS1 controller for the longest time.

Goldeneye needed a second controller, which most N64 users already had.

I don't really agree about the intended way argument. Goldeneye controls better with the dual analog option so it's the best one. Also keep in mind that the developers implemented this option even though there wasn't a dual analog gamepad. Using two controllers that way must seemed crazy back then but despite that, they did implemented the option, which shows how ahead of the time the devs were and how badly they wanted to show this off.

I wouldn't say that WASD + mouse was the standard for PC at that time.

I can't comment on that, i was not a PC gamer at the time, i only played Quake on a friend's PC and he would use WASD and mouse for it. And that's what i got used to.

But turns out it was the best method and it still is. And that's what Turok tried to emulate.

 

[Holammer]

Yep Golden Eye or Turok would be the first with something which resembles modern fps controls, but the N64 controller like many of Nintendo's controllers was an evolutionary dead end.
Dualshock however is like the shark remains largely unchanged over the eons.

 

[nkarafo]

but the N64 controller like many of Nintendo's controllers was an evolutionary dead end.
Dualshock however is like the shark remains largely unchanged over the eons.

To be fair, the original PS1 controller is just a SNES controller with two extra shoulder buttons and different labels. And then they stuck two analog sticks on it.

 

[YCoCg]

Well, Alien Resurrection also needed "extra hardware" since the dual shock was not the standard PS1 controller for the longest time.

If I remember correctly majority of PS1 bundles sold around the time of Alien Resurrections release did ship DualShocks.

I don't really agree about the intended way argument. Goldeneye controls better with the dual analog option so it's the best one. Also keep in mind that the developers implemented this option even though there wasn't a dual analog gamepad. Using two controllers that way must seemed crazy back then but despite that, they did implemented the option, which shows how ahead of the time the devs were and how badly they wanted to show this off.

Though I'd agree with this, RARE were onto something, even if it does credits the British for modern FPS controls.

 

[kevboard]

To be fair, the original PS1 controller is just a SNES controller with two extra shoulder buttons and different labels. And then they stuck two analog sticks on it.

the 2 sticks that the Dual Analog controller introduced were mainly meant as a replacement for this thing btw:

hence it having a Joystick mode (which the Dualshock, for some reason, didn't have anymore...)

the main function of the right stick was essentially to be used with games that supported this dual joystick they sold, which was mainly designed for stuff like Ace Combat.

you can tell that even Sony's own devs didn't know what to do with the second stick. even late games that had dual analog Support didn't use the right stick really. you still moved the camera on the shoulder buttons in the Spyro trilogy and Medievil 2 for example, even tho Nintendo already had a primitive blueprint for the right stick camera controls with their C buttons and mario 64's camera controls.

 

[nkarafo]

If I remember correctly majority of PS1 bundles sold around the time of Alien Resurrections release did ship DualShocks.

Yeah, maybe. But if you were an earlier adopter you most likely didn't have a dual shock.

Personally, i didn't know anyone who had a dual shock before the PS2. But whoever i knew with N64 had at least two controllers. I mean, the N64 was deemed as the definitive couch multiplayer console.

My point is, if you consider a second standard N64 controller as extra hardware, i don't see how you wouldn't also apply this standard on the dual shock as well.

Other than that, i see what you mean and maybe i'm nitpicking your argument here.

 

[YCoCg]

Other than that, i see what you mean and maybe i'm nitpicking your argument here.

When it comes down to "Buying a Dualshock" vs "Having two N64 Controllers" I'd say yeah, we're in the nit pick region

We can agree that modern controls were the last hurrah of 90s innovation that's still stuck to this day.

 

[IFireflyl]

I told you that you don't need 2. you need 1. the only difference is that instead of a left stick you then have a Dpad, which is in essence still the same idea and layout.

I know what you said. I just tossed it out immediately because Dpad =/= Analog. The two things are completely different, and the Dpad is atrocious in comparison. Dpad is pretty much only relevant for fighting games, sidescrollers, and menu selection. And even if I were to accept that the Dpad being used instead is just the same, that entire controller layout sucked so you could not easily reach all of the controls regardless of whether you were using on controller or two.

 

[kevboard]

I know what you said. I just tossed it out immediately because Dpad =/= Analog. The two things are completely different, and the Dpad is atrocious in comparison. Dpad is pretty much only relevant for fighting games, sidescrollers, and menu selection. And even if I were to accept that the Dpad being used instead is just the same, that entire controller layout sucked so you could not easily reach all of the controls regardless of whether you were using on controller or two.

the concept is identical. the main revolutionary idea behind these controls is that you have an analog input to aim with one hand, while having your movement in the other hand.

having analog movement is completely optional to this concept, even to this day. ask any PC mouse and keyboard player.

if you bought Quake on N64, and you turned on your console, you would by default be greeted by a layout where you move with the Dpad while you aim with the stick. replacing the Dpad with a stick isn't in any way changing the core control concept behind this.

 

[mopspear]

Alright OP, if we're going to dig this deep, do we need to check arcade games too?

 

[nkarafo]

Alright OP, if we're going to dig this deep, do we need to check arcade games too?

Well, i'm saying "modern console FPS controls" in the title.

But feel free to post arcades if you want, some extra information we don't know about wouldn't hurt.

 

[phant0m]

Gotta be one of the worst takes of all time from a professional reviewer. Like up there with “too much water”

 

[nkarafo]

Gotta be one of the worst takes of all time from a professional reviewer. Like up there with “too much water”

And Edge's "If you could talk to the monsters and make friends with them it would be interesting" 7/10 original DOOM review.

 

[marjo]

For PC, the first game I remember that used keyboard for forward, back, strafe and mouse for turning and looking up and down was was Terminator: Future Shock, which came out in 1995.

Which means Bethesda actually invented modern FPS controls.

 

[SkylineRKR]

Game journalism was always laughable.

I'm reading some old mags for nostalgia and i can't believe some of the stuff we used to read.



Not sure about aim acceleration but Goldeneye had aim assist options.

Its just that no one had real experience with it yet. I like reading through old mags for this reason.

But analog controls did start weird. N64 C buttons were.. buttons. Not a stick. Also, I remember a lot of racing games with Dual shock would default to accel and brake on RS which was awkward as fuck. Ape Escape was revolutionary with the L3 and R3 but slashing was done with RS and camera movement was actually on shoulder buttons.

 

[ComputerBlue]

I always felt like Goldeneye introduced it, Halo fine tuned it, and COD perfected it.

 

[delirium trigger]

Goldeneye didn't have the same controls as Halo though...

 

[kevboard]

I always felt like Goldeneye introduced it, Halo fine tuned it, and COD perfected it

CoD didn't perfect it, it was just another evolutionary step. Some modern shooters did however perfect it since...
while CoD actually fell behind,
somewhere along the way CoD went downhill for some reason.

starting around the Modern Warfare reboot they introduced extremely noticeable aim acceleration which can not be disabled.
they always had a small amount of aim acceleration even back in CoD4 and Modern Warfare 2, but in recent games it became way more noticeable and intrusive.

where now even Fortnite, which started out with absolutely horrible aiming controls, has way better stick aiming than CoD

Apex Legends, Xdefiant and several other shooters these days did actually perfect it by offering deep customisation for every aspect of aiming.
from custom reaction curves, to bonus speed settings, and acceleration settings (for the masochists that actually turn it on)

 

[SScorpio]

For PC, the first game I remember that used keyboard for forward, back, strafe and mouse for turning and looking up and down was was Terminator: Future Shock, which came out in 1995.

Which means Bethesda actually invented modern FPS controls.

Hmm.. the manual for that lists mouse look functionality but it used A and Z for forward and back. Descent which was released nine month earlier had default mappings for forward/back/strafe on the keyboard and with mouse look. But that was a ship, so people will argue that it's a flight sim, even though it had strafing.

But as I said Quake didn't have it as a standard thing in '96. But DF2: Jedi Knight was '97 and had the standard WASD + mouse. So once people started using it, it took off.

Developers experimented with all different ways of controlling their games. Now almost everything uses the same control methods. That can be good as you can jump game to game and instantly know how to play, but IMO it also makes playing it safe too easy and we're less likely to get something new and unique. Analog keyboards aren't great for typing IMO, but the gaming keypads can be cool. It's just a real analog stick hasn't been tried again since the Logitech G-13. A real analog stick on your left thumb with a mini keyboard for your other figures combined with a mouse gives you analog character movement, the precision of a mouse, and more inputs than any game controller on the market.

 

[Heimdall_Xtreme]

Of the entire N64 generation... I never used the black D-pad or there wasn't a time when I remembered to use it.

 

[Signalis]

Alien Resurrection was the first. As much as I love Nintendo, you could swear Nintendo invented air, water, the sun etc. with how some people go on

 

[LordOcidax]

Well, i'm saying "modern console FPS controls" in the title.

But feel free to post arcades if you want, some extra information we don't know about wouldn't hurt.

Some people here are going to move the goal post endless times before giving credits to a Nintendo console… is a Fact that nintendo invented the double stick movement in FPS on consoles.

 

[10101]

Didn't Quake 2 on PS1 come out before Alien Resurrection, that was the first game I remember using the dual shock sticks in a FPS for? My memory is hazy though!

Edit:
I checked out of curiosity - you had to use the d-pad for movement, can't believe I played the shit out of that with such wank controls lol

 

[ComputerBlue]

CoD didn't perfect it, it was just another evolutionary step. Some modern shooters did however perfect it since...
while CoD actually fell behind,
somewhere along the way CoD went downhill for some reason.

starting around the Modern Warfare reboot they introduced extremely noticeable aim acceleration which can not be disabled.
they always had a small amount of aim acceleration even back in CoD4 and Modern Warfare 2, but in recent games it became way more noticeable and intrusive.

where now even Fortnite, which started out with absolutely horrible aiming controls, has way better stick aiming than CoD

Apex Legends, Xdefiant and several other shooters these days did actually perfect it by offering deep customisation for every aspect of aiming.
from custom reaction curves, to bonus speed settings, and acceleration settings (for the masochists that actually turn it on)

I should’ve been more specific, I meant control layout.

 

[rodrigolfp]

I always thought Halo’s major contribution was the aim acceleration and assist component that fooled you to think you have much better aim.

Ftfy.

 

[notseqi]

Wait Wait Wait! You could use 2 controllers to play Goldeneye?

Damn & now the middle grip makes more sense.

Perfect Dark had it too.

and Star Wars Episode I: Racer

I did love Turoks' scheme tho, C-buttons for movement, analog stick for looking around

 

[The_Mike]

Quote still true to this day.

 

[marquimvfs]

Everytime someone posts anything related to N64 qualities, IFireflyl jumps in with the hate. We know, mate. You don't like it. Just suck it up and stop pretending that N64 wasn't a great console that bought several innovative titles and functionalities to the market, even if it sold way (waaay) less than PlayStation.

 

[nkarafo]

Alien Resurrection was the first. As much as I love Nintendo, you could swear Nintendo invented air, water, the sun etc. with how some people go on

Neither Turok or Goldeneye were developed by Nintendo though.

Yes, the controller was made by Nintendo but i doubt they ever thought the controller design would help Iguana make Turok's FPS control scheme. It was made with Mario 64 in mind.

Also, Goldeneye had dual analog controls not because of the N64 controller but despite of it. I bet RARE wished Nintendo would make a dual analog controller during Goldeneye's development but that never happened so they had to use whatever they had. Thankfully, the way the gamepad is designed (with the analog stick in the middle leg) helps with the dual controllers hold. So, another happy accident i suppose.

In an alternate universe Goldeneye was released with a special dual analog controller pack-in. Just like how Starfox 64 was a pack-in with the rumble pack. I always liked that thought. I guess if they knew Goldeneye would be such a massive success they would do it.

 

[San Dan Glokta]

The game that streamlines FPS games on consoles with the proper analog placement controller <3

 

[Audiophile]

For me, true modern controls include proper ADS.

While other games before had the gun up by default or snap-zoomed into the crosshairs while keeping the gun stationary to the side (and in some cases would allow a switch to a scope view); I think Operation Flashpoint from around 2001 was the first proper game where you could go from hip fire and then bring the sights up to the middle and ADS with a sight or irons.

I can't play games without it anymore, feel like one arm is tied behind my back. I'm amazed it took as long as it did to show up.

 

[IFireflyl]

Everytime someone posts anything related to N64 qualities, IFireflyl jumps in with the hate. We know, mate. You don't like it. Just suck it up and stop pretending that N64 wasn't a great console that bought several innovative titles and functionalities to the market, even if it sold way (waaay) less than PlayStation.

Oh fuck off, mate. I didn't say anything about the N64 overall. The controller sucks ass, and this is an extremely popular opinion. Cry more.

 

[ReyBrujo]

But what really makes Goldeneye special is that it was the first FPS console game that had actual dual analog controls, using two analog sticks, two years before Alien Resurrection.

Smash TV says hi.

(They weren't analog but cannot name games with two joysticks without naming it. And skipping Robotron since I never played it)

 

[nkarafo]

Smash TV says hi.

(They weren't analog but cannot name games with two joysticks without naming it. And skipping Robotron since I never played it)

It's also not an FPS game.

You are a bit off topic here.

The controller sucks ass, and this is an extremely popular opinion.

Indeed it is a popular opinion, but it's also an uninformed one. Most people dislike the controller because of it's odd shape but very few of them are aware it's the only single stick controller that allows for the "right handed" modern FPS control scheme, as my OP proves. You can't do that with the Dreamcast controller or the Saturn 3D controller or any other single analog stick controller.

Obviously it's not as good as any dual analog controller but those came later. The N64 controller was already revolutionary enough with it's single analog stick. And i know it wasn't technically the first analog controller but it was the one that made analog controls popular, which is the same standard people apply to Halo as the first game that made FPS controls popular. So the issue is not that Nintendo deserves credit for everything including oxygen, it's how so many people hold Nintendo to different standards so they can deny crediting them for anything at all.

 

[genesisblock]

Ok, we need to end this debate. Had anybody actually tried this on the PSX? How did it feel compared to Halo?

 

[TerribleAtThisGame]

Ok, we need to end this debate. Had anybody actually tried this on the PSX? How did it feel compared to Halo?

Funny thing is that I completely missed this game despite being an Alien fan and being knee-deep in my first real job with money coming in at the time. I was buying a ton of games and I never even knew about this until I started seeing this review "meme".

I've always wanted to go back and try it on OG hardware because there are a ton of factors that could've made an early version of dual sticks feel horrible and result in that reviewer's take. We've had 2+ decades of fine tuning so I wonder how this one plays now.