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[Danknugz]

Starfield design lead says players are "disconnected" from how games are actually made: "Don't fool yourself into thinking you know why it is the way it is"

"I can guess what it takes to make a Hostess Twinkie, but I don't work in the factory"

www.gamesradar.com

embarrassing

 

[JackMcGunns]

Jesus Christ, the hubris of bethesda about this insanely mediocre game is so tiresome.

They thought it was the second coming of christ or something?

Guys, IT IS A BORING ASS GAME!

Face it. Learn from it.

And fix it for the next skyrim.

My god…

It's not boring, that's going a bit too far, but I understand where you're coming from, if I stuck with just the main campaign and did nothing else, I think I would find it boring, a lof of the side quests should've been part of the campaign, like I didn't get that. The Crimson Fleet quest is like a standalone game by itself.

 

[AmuroChan]

By this person's logic then, customers cannot criticize a product if they're not part of the design/manufacturing/development process. What a stupid statement. If that's case, then sites like Rotten Tomatoes and Yelp shouldn't exist. Surely most Yelp reviewers are not culinary professionals and RT reviewers are not Hollywood production experts.

 

[Gavon West]

See gamers, you're the ones at fault. Not the "Our game does everything, even makes coffee - 2 months ahead of release" mentality.

We just expect to much.

That's not what he said. You don't even know the difference between, to, and too. Stahp!

 

[Reizo Ryuu]

I might not know how a twinkly is made, but I know when it doesn't taste right. Saying "oh well you don't know what into making that" doesn't make it taste any better.

That's not what he said, in fact he agrees with you, everyone is allowed to this opinion
y'all need to actually read what he says, but once again for those that can't be bothered: it's about speaking with authority about why the product, or parts of it, is the way it is. It doesn't matter if you don't like the product, go ahead and voice that opinion all day.

 

[IllegalLemon]

Lol. People kill me. You dont care how its made but in reality, there is a solar system of difference between playing a game and making one. Thats just the truth. The man put out a genuine statement that's just as valid as your criticisms, but lets just crap all over his thoughts and real world experience because we have a right to our opinions. And you're right, we do. Just dont get confused in thinking because you have an opinion, its correct. Most times it falls flat against someone who actually works in the field.

I work in the film industry. Its always amazing just how out of touch people are when they attempt to tell you how to do your job when they have no idea what it is you actually do. At the end of the day, we bust our asses making the best film we can, do our due diligence to correct any creative decisions that may not be in the best interest of the production, put it in the can and hope for the best. Thats literally all you can really do. There is no formula to determine whats a banger and what isnt until the production is out in the wild, This happens even AFTER youve taken feedback from other films you've made. There's just no guarantee. Game development is the same way. Hell, all creative endeavors are. Its madd easy to criticize someone's creative product from the sidelines.

That said though, I'm glad this man has decided to draw a line between gamers and developers. It NEEDED to be said. There's a lot of genuine criticisms about Starfield, there's also a bunch of it in bad faith. In truth, there's way more positive out there about Starfield than negative, only the negative is much louder and its popular to crap on the game throughout social media. The game is still the tenth best selling game this year, and still sits on the 7th most played game on Xbox, and still talked about after four months from its release. Thats bound to increase after all the DLC, mods, etc. Its still a stellar game (especially being a new IP) even with its flaws. I just believe that gamers begin to believe in their own legends when it comes to these enthusiasts forums because they a free to say whatever they want to say. And no offense but GaF is notorious for crapping on anything Xbox as its primarily Sony centric. By default, that makes this place the LAST DESTINATION you want to visit if you're looking for REAL, GENUINE constructive criticisms or reviews when it comes to the Xbox platform.

I admire your commitment friend and I crap on all games, regardless of whether they exist on someone's plastic box or not, a fanboy's reaction is just a bonus. I'm not part of a defence force and if I want real, genuine criticisms of a game, I don't look for them in bought out review publications, which shill for corporations after getting paid to leave positive reviews, so their feelings don't get hurt from all the criticism. I look for those reviews on steam, where there are users who are verified byers of those games and don't hold back when judging a game. I'm a gamer, I play games and watch out for upcoming ones that spark my interest. He's a game dev, his purpose is to develop and code the damn thing and he can do it if he wants, nobody's forcing him to do it, it's his choice. In this case, they messed up with Starfield and gamers are calling them out for it. Why defend something that's indefensible? I played his creation, realised he didn't deliver and stated my opinion, which I'm entitled to. Take it or leave it. I don't give a flying pixie stick if it triggers people. It's why it's called an opinion and much like I respect other people's opinions, i ask the same from them, they don't have to like it if they don't want to, but they could, at the very least, respect it.

 

[Crayon]

We all know about armchair game design but you had to get all salty about it.

 

[SidViscous]

No it’s not a bad game because of those reasons (Just a bad game due to other reasons).

Okay

 

[iQuasarLV]

I admire your commitment friend and I crap on all games, regardless of whether they exist on someone's plastic box or not, a fanboy's reaction is just a bonus. I'm not part of a defence force and if I want real, genuine criticisms of a game, I don't look for them in bought out review publications, which shill for corporations after getting paid to leave positive reviews, so their feelings don't get hurt from all the criticism. I look for those reviews on steam, where there are users who are verified byers of those games and don't hold back when judging a game. I'm a gamer, I play games and watch out for upcoming ones that spark my interest. He's a game dev, his purpose is to develop and code the damn thing and he can do it if he wants, nobody's forcing him to do it, it's his choice. In this case, they messed up with Starfield and gamers are calling them out for it. Why defend something that's indefensible? I played his creation, realised he didn't deliver and stated my opinion, which I'm entitled to. Take it or leave it. I don't give a flying pixie stick if it triggers people. It's why it's called an opinion and much like I respect other people's opinions, i ask the same from them, they don't have to like it if they don't want to, but they could, at the very least, respect it.

Also, to piggyback on this chain of comments, if the developer wanted to draw a line between themselves and the playing public they shouldn't have allowed modding in the goddamn product. If you open up your kitchen to any cook to step in and see how things are run do not be butt hurt when the shit starts flying about how you run your shop!

 

[The artful mincer]

Gamers aren't as dumb as you think they are. In fact, it's developers who are sometimes out of touch (and I'm one of em), gamers play all sorts of games all day long, they know what they like, they know plenty about game systems that work, they know what looks good and what doesn't. I'm generalising here of course, but Devs should listen to gamers more in my opinion, they are the customer after all.

And his Twinkie analogy is flawed, you don't have to know how it's made to know if you like the taste or not.

(Edit: as was mentioned a couple of posts above mine)

This is cool to hear thanks.

I have always thought that some gamers are gonna have a broader experience of games than some devs that are so tunnel visioned on there own game.

That's not to say we should tell you how to do your job. But maybe sometimes we know one or two things that you don't.

In contrast to this bethesda dev I really appreciated this interview that Hugo Martin the director of Doom Eternal did with Under the Mayo. Hugo is flat out saying that Under the Mayo has a really good grasp of game design and should start making them lol.

 

[Deerock71]

 

[Hudo]

Luckily, I don't work for Bethesda or Microsoft so I don't have to know what the "real reasons" are that it's incredibly mid. It's just fucking incredibly mid. Get fucked, Bethesda guy. Do a better job on TES6, if you know "why" people think Starfield is mid/disappointing.

 

[dottme]

Now I’m wondering if they were planning the same kind of gameplay for TES6 and they are trying to do as much damage control as possible.

 

[semiconscious]

embarrassing

seriously. as in, 'poor baby!' level embarrassing...

 

[ZoukGalaxy]

And no one cares, is a car manufacturer trying to find excuses if you crash because "you don't know how they are made" and it was because the car was poorly designed and build ?

Spoiler: NO

Same thing for a house or anything similar, yeah, that's "only" entertainment but that's still our money we are giving to them.
Or even just a phone, all the jobs involved to build such a little thing that you use every day and manufacturers are not moaning when they fails.

Guy is disconnected from a market where people are expecting to buy finished product and it's legitimate. And we are not living in a world where things are judged by merits, but by results. That's always the same thing with "artists": don't judge the results but judge that "I tried". Pathetic.

 

[Bkdk]

So fine, I'll just say what I know about the game, this game just sucks and it sucks I spent 70 bucks on it and I want at least a partial refund of 69 dollars. bethesda devs have no idea how hard it takes for me to make that money just like I don't exactly know what happened in their game design problems.

 

[Gambit2483]

Now I’m wondering if they were planning the same kind of gameplay for TES6 and they are trying to do as much damage control as possible.

If they are still using creation engine...don't get your hopes up.

 

[Nydius]

This has become a boilerplate excuse by devs when a game they make and overhype ends up receiving middling reviews and mediocre user scores.

"Game dev is hard!"
"Gamers just don't understand the industry!"
"Gamers are entitled!"

I began my career in CS -- programming -- before switching to IT. I understand how difficult it is to design and code complex systems. But that's not an excuse when there's been damn near a decade of development. It also doesn't help them that they have marketing mouthpieces and overzealous developers (like Todd Howard) who spend years overpromising and overhyping the game. How many times did we hear from Todd over the years that Starfield was the game he "always wanted to make" or that it was a "passion project" for the whole studio? Only for the game to come out with less build depth and world complexity than 12 year old Skyrim? (Edit: Vanilla Skyrim at that, not the post-modder, re-released with updates Skyrim.)

This year has proven developers can release absolute bangers. Zelda TOTK. BG3. Alan Wake 2. Hi-Fi Rush. Just to name a few. Blaming "gamers" for getting mediocre scores when the game is following the dated "Bethesda RPG" model that can be traced back 20 years to Morrowind on an engine that clearly needs to be remade from the ground up for next-gen and PC development is a cop-out excuse.

I enjoyed Starfield.
It didn't deserve to be in the discussion for GOTY.
That's not the gamers fault.

 

[mckmas8808]

Jesus Christ, the hubris of bethesda about this insanely mediocre game is so tiresome.

They thought it was the second coming of christ or something?

Guys, IT IS A BORING ASS GAME!

Face it. Learn from it.

And fix it for the next skyrim.

My god…

Why are they trying to convince the gaming world that we don't understand why their game is so awesome? I've never seen this in my entire life in the video game industry.

 

[Disco Dave]

 

[Metnut]

Imagine thinking that NeoGaf being “Sony centric” is the origin of the complaints about Starfield. Put your tinfoil hat on if you really believe tens of thousands of “pro-Sony” people are buying gaming PCs, buying the game on Steam, and then leaving negative feedback. Take a step back and realize how ridiculous this sounds.

The level of delusion on the internet never ceases to surprise me.

 

[fallingdove]

It's not boring, that's going a bit too far, but I understand where you're coming from, if I stuck with just the main campaign and did nothing else, I think I would find it boring, a lof of the side quests should've been part of the campaign, like I didn't get that. The Crimson Fleet quest is like a standalone game by itself.

The game is VERY boring and overly tedious. It is the equivalent of stretching FFXVIs side quests across a 30-40hr game.

There were very few redeeming qualities I encountered over the 5 hours I subjected myself to the slog.

 

[Edmund]

The game is good. People are engaged.

It's so funny how you Xbox fans start using the word engage cuz your master Phil Spencer is using it. I bet this word wasn't in your dictionary last year.

Nowadays it's engage this and engage that. How about asking your master Phil Spencer to make some good fucking games instead.

 

[Nydius]

The game is good. People are engaged.

"Engagement metrics" mean jack shit.

I picked up Avatar, played it about 11 hours, didn't like it. I installed Rollerdrome, played it a bit, couldn't get into it. Both are deleted but using Microsoft's "engagement metric" model, the fact that I played them, no matter how briefly, could be used to manipulate popularity stats. It's why sales numbers are still important -- but Microsoft has decided to obfuscate those numbers since the Xbox One era. Precisely because they know they have to change the narrative or face further irrelevance.

Again, it's doing very well, doesn't need to be saved, still topping the charts.

What "charts" is Starfield topping? Since Microsoft doesn't provide sales figures for Xbox or Windows Store PC sales, you can't give an accurate number there. It's on their Xbox generic "Most Played" list which, conveniently, doesn't list them by ranking so you don't know if it's being played on Xbox platforms any more or less than, say, Rocket League. It's not currently in the top 100 Steam sales chart (and yet, Skyrim SE is number 80). Starfield Standard Edition is currently #241 on Amazon's video game sales tracking charts (though it is #6 when limited only to Xbox Series S | X platform sales).

So please, show us all these magical "charts" Starfield is topping.

 

[Denton]

While I have lot of issues with Starfield, I actually took the time to read the original tweet thread by Pagliarulo and it is hard to find anything to disagree with there. I can only imagine how frustrating it must be to have a short article with some nuance boiled down to single clickbait headline, like news sites do, or like OP does.

 

[hinch7]

Replace EA and its the same energy..

 

[Nonehxc]

*Gobble gobble something white*

 

[Majormaxxx]

Damn this guy lost a ton of weight...

Now to the topic at hand - what a giant pussy, even after the weight loss.

Here's a thought, Emil P, instead of focusing all this useless effort on cooking vegan food and running triathlons, sit on our bony butt, shut up, get fat again and write actual good games.

Or just quit.

Kidding of course. I'm sure writing games is complex. But don't bitch like a wuss. And congrats on the fitness success.

 

[Arsic]

Look I had a good time with my 75 hours of starfield but it’s not the best Bethesda title, and it isn’t up to modern standards . The comparable offering is no man’s sky, and that’s better in all key aspects of the game maybe minus gameplay for guns. The rest starfield isn’t setting the bar in.

Good luck in learning and adapting to meet current market demand with ES6… but with how long they develop it likely won’t.

Should still be fun though .

 

[Shake Your Rump]

Admit it guys, Creation Engine fucking sucks and is a relic of the past. It is great for modding but Bethesda is clearly lagging behind against new Engines out there.

Well, they doubled-down by updating Skyrim with their creation engine paid mod marketplace. This will surely be in the Fallout 4 “next gen” update (probably why it is delayed), and coming to Starfield at some point.

I wouldn’t be surprised if one of the primary reasons they stuck with this engine is to allow easy integration of paid mods with existing infrastructure.

 

[tr1p1ex]

Bethesda has been releasing buggy, shoddy, unfinished games for 20+ years. That would have been my defense lol.

 

[Dynasty8]

Fine, fair enough. From a game developer's perspective, we don't know shit about how games are made. There is no doubt that there is a lot more complicated stuff behind the scenes we know nothing about. That's all true.

But your game was still boring and didn't do it for a lot of people. From a consumer's perspective, Starfield was mediocre on many areas and pretty damn boring.

 

[lughnasadh123]

It's a bit harder to reasonably deflect criticism when so many other games get it right.

Now, they can stand by the whole "piss off, it's our vision" mantra which to be fair many players have also used as a shield for their favored game, or they could reflect a bit with the criticisms to see where they can do better with the next one.

 

[SHA]

Before SF, can't think of expressions existed only in video games, all of them could be imitated, but this is different.

 

[Techno_Inked]

"Funny how disconnected some players are from the realities of game development, and yet they speak with complete authority," Pagliarulo begins. "I mean, I can guess what it takes to make a Hostess Twinkie, but I don't work in the factory, so what the hell do I really know? Not a lot."

If the Twinkie tastes like shit you'd know it's bad.
You also know you got a shit deal if you paid full price, but received a half shitty Twinkie in return.

Pagliarulo acknowledges that consumers have a right to complain about the things they spend money on

Great, because your game really sucks.

In a lengthy Twitter thread, Starfield lead and Bethesda studio design director Emil Pagliarulo laments "how disconnected some players are" from the realities of game development, and encourages passionate fans to avoid making assumptions about how and why design decisions are made.

I wonder if it ever occurred to this bright mind of Emil Pagliarulo, that his whole team just sucks or that their production pipeline sucks.
How disconnected must his team be from the realities of the market, thinking they are better than other devs.
It's no wonder they suck, when they lack the ability to take any criticism on the chin, learn from it, and move on.
Instead, they blame the consumers for perceiving the actual shitty product as a shitty product.
Now that's delusional...

 

[Reizo Ryuu]

 

[GHG]

I work in the film industry.

You're a good actor, I'll give you that.

 

[JackMcGunns]

The game is VERY boring and overly tedious. It is the equivalent of stretching FFXVIs side quests across a 30-40hr game.

There were very few redeeming qualities I encountered over the 5 hours I subjected myself to the slog.

I mean that's like Your opinion. I've sunk 500+hrs and I personally love the game, it's been a while since Oblivion where I sunk in that many hours into a game, or maybe FF: CC doing the missions and getting all to 99.

 

[Hudo]

I laughed harder at this than I should've.

 

[StereoVsn]

So true, not ecen movie directors and producers come out with this shit

Eh, no, plenty of directors blamed their audience for not seeing their films. Marvel schlock lately, the awful Ghostbusters movie and many more.

 

[StereoVsn]

Most of this games problems are not engine related

Far from it. From the looks and feel of it the old guard were moved over for more 'progressive' types in the field

And doesnt it show.

Somebody did a comparison between Cyberpunk 2077 nightclub and whatever the hell this is. For all its faults (and there are still many), CDPR at least made a much more interesting single city va Starfields 1000 planets.

 

[James Sawyer Ford]

Some Sausage is made well

Other Sausage (like Starfield) is made extremely poorly.

 

[CherryFalls]

As somebody who HAS developed multiple successful AAA games I guess im allowed to comment. Yes, the decisions you made during Starfield's development suck, and the game sucks.

Everyone here is right and can carry on.

 

[Gavon West]

As somebody who HAS developed multiple successful AAA games I guess im allowed to comment. Yes, the decisions you made during Starfield's development suck, and the game sucks.

Everyone here is right and can carry on.

If you develop games professionally, you're no professional. What pro with any kind of dignity or integrity creates puke posts like this?? Yikes!

 

[DeepEnigma]

Most gamers don't care how games are made, they care about the end result.

Keep tying yourselves in knots, drip that hubris.

 

[Buggy Loop]

If you develop games professionally, you're no professional. What pro with any kind of dignity or integrity creates puke posts like this?? Yikes!

Being a professional in a field does not mean you have to walk on egg shells anonymously on the internet when talking about someone's else work. Surely you're not that naive?

 

[AltogetherAndrews]

Well, he’s not wrong. Much like moviegoers have no idea of what, for example, VFX actually entails, much to the annoyance of those of us who do it for a living.

That said, maybe not the best idea to comment on it. Although I understand the frustration.

 

[Tams]

Quite simply coping and being a sore loser.

A few times, I've put my heart and soul into things that have turned out crap. You just have to learn from it and move on. Getting defensive and angsty about it does no one any good.

 

[Mr Hyde]

Eh, no, plenty of directors blamed their audience for not seeing their films. Marvel schlock lately, the awful Ghostbusters movie and many more.

Yeah several filmmakers have publicly blamed audience and critics for their failures. Apart from those you mentioned, there is also Alex Proyas who had an epic meltdown against the press and moviegoers when his latest film "Gods of Egypt" bombed at the box office and garnered crappy reviews. He called journalists vultures and did similar comments as Bethesda, saying that people don't appreciate the hard work that goes into making these films. Jordan-Vogt Roberts went off on a Twitter tirade against CinemaSins trying to defend Kong: Skull Island. I don't know if it was in jest, but he got a lot of pushback in the comments and started arguing with some of the users, which was a bad look for him.

 

[Buggy Loop]

Well, he’s not wrong. Much like moviegoers have no idea of what, for example, VFX actually entails, much to the annoyance of those of us who do it for a living.

That said, maybe not the best idea to comment on it. Although I understand the frustration.

Those of us who don't work in the VFX industry, can't we laugh at things such as Lost's infamous sub?

I feel we can..