supernova8
Banned
Yep and while I think BOTW perfected the open world tower thing (which Ubisoft ruined by packing the map full of annoying icons), that was thanks to smarter design rather than any technological advancements.
Last edited:
-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
The new generation has brought us graphics innovations, but what about gameplay innovations?
- Thread starter 64gigabyteram
- Start date
- Opinion
Yep and while I think BOTW perfected the open world tower thing (which Ubisoft ruined by packing the map full of annoying icons), that was thanks to smarter design rather than any technological advancements.
MidGenRefresh
*Refreshes biennially
Amazing game and my favourite RPG ever.
TheBROgamer
Banned
That's due to diminishing returns, modern graphics already look pretty good and making them look much better gets harder with every new gen.
The jump from PS4 to PS5 is the smallest yet, really just 60 FPS and 4K native (few) or upscaled games.
Last edited:
rodrigolfp
Haptic Gamepads 4 Life
Hold a different and better controller, maybe.
Marvel14
Banned
Inspired is not the same as:
So no...OP is talking out of the wrong orifice.
It's the COMBINATION of advanced physics, zelda systems and formula and complete freedom to craft your own unique experience that makes it great and innovative. It couldn't have been made in the main of gen 7 precisely because it builds and improves on gen7 open worlds.
The next break through is going to be NPC AI deepening interactivity and immersion. Graphics is now at the point of diminishing returns.
rabbity-thing
Member
Gaming is changing. It is very clearly now simply another medium with which one can create art. Consider movies, music, books, etc. They, too, are hungry for innovation because innovation in those realms is generally not being held back by technological constraints (something that for a long time served as a huge limiting factor on game design). That said, there's nothing wrong with creations that lack innovation. Good games are good games regardless of whether or not they present a new exciting design and/or gimmick. Consider all the excellent works of art created that didn't push innovation. Children of Men is one of the best movies I've ever seen. Wasn't innovative. Wasn't even original. It was a remake of a book. Or look at Dylan's Blonde on Blonde. Amazing album, but not really innovative since it was riding the same wave as Bringing it All Back Home and Highway 61 Revisited.
I think gamers just need to get used to the fact that innovation is going to be a lot less prevalent in the gaming world and that the lack of innovation is not something to lament. It's just a byproduct of the artists having a better canvas and paint with which to create their masterpieces.
I think gamers just need to get used to the fact that innovation is going to be a lot less prevalent in the gaming world and that the lack of innovation is not something to lament. It's just a byproduct of the artists having a better canvas and paint with which to create their masterpieces.
Last edited:
magnumpy
Member
imo its a bs excuse to say something like "oh graphics are just as good as they will ever get" or something like that
it's bs because photorealistic graphics have yet to be achieved. sure they have in limited instances, but basically anyone can tell the difference between a videogame and real life. until the two are indistinguishable, real-time graphics have miles to go until they are as good as they should be.
not to say that they are worthless trash or something, graphics have continued to improve since the days of pong and they will no doubt improve more in the years to come. but to say "ok, job's done, there is no need to improve graphics anymore" is frankly short-sighted and myopic. it's perhaps just hard to imagine how specifically graphics should improve, but I believe in the old saying "where there's a will there's a way" and look forward to future developments in real-time graphics technology. there is certainly the necessary money and interest in the right places to achieve great things.
no doubt back in the days of pong that was simply as good as the then current technology allowed for, but I refuse to believe that in say a decades time real-time graphics will be in the same spot they are in today
it's bs because photorealistic graphics have yet to be achieved. sure they have in limited instances, but basically anyone can tell the difference between a videogame and real life. until the two are indistinguishable, real-time graphics have miles to go until they are as good as they should be.
not to say that they are worthless trash or something, graphics have continued to improve since the days of pong and they will no doubt improve more in the years to come. but to say "ok, job's done, there is no need to improve graphics anymore" is frankly short-sighted and myopic. it's perhaps just hard to imagine how specifically graphics should improve, but I believe in the old saying "where there's a will there's a way" and look forward to future developments in real-time graphics technology. there is certainly the necessary money and interest in the right places to achieve great things.
no doubt back in the days of pong that was simply as good as the then current technology allowed for, but I refuse to believe that in say a decades time real-time graphics will be in the same spot they are in today
TheBROgamer
Banned
Nobody is saying graphics won't improve, it's just that the jumps in visuals between periods of time has been lower.imo its a bs excuse to say something like "oh graphics are just as good as they will ever get" or something like that
it's bs because photorealistic graphics have yet to be achieved. sure they have in limited instances, but basically anyone can tell the difference between a videogame and real life. until the two are indistinguishable, real-time graphics have miles to go until they are as good as they should be.
not to say that they are worthless trash or something, graphics have continued to improve since the days of pong and they will no doubt improve more in the years to come. but to say "ok, job's done, there is no need to improve graphics anymore" is frankly short-sighted and myopic. it's perhaps just hard to imagine how specifically graphics should improve, but I believe in the old saying "where there's a will there's a way" and look forward to future developments in real-time graphics technology. there is certainly the necessary money and interest in the right places to achieve great things.
no doubt back in the days of pong that was simply as good as the then current technology allowed for, but I refuse to believe that in say a decades time real-time graphics will be in the same spot they are in today
This is what diminishing returns is about, it's that perceivable progression gets harder as whatever medium matures.
Doom: 1993
Crysis: 2007
Graphics have not evolved anywhere this much from 2008 to 2022 (14 years equal to the time between Doom and Crysis).
Last edited:
magnumpy
Member
Nobody is saying graphics won't improve, it's just that the jumps in visuals between periods of time has been lower.
This is what diminishing returns is about, it's that perceivable progression gets harder as whatever medium matures.
Doom: 1993
Crysis: 2007
Graphics have not evolved anywhere this much from 2008 to 2022 (14 years equal to the time between Doom and Crysis).
true but Crysis was a particularly notable example of attempting "real time photo-realistic graphics"
it did that partially by being a PC exclusive (initially) with VERY high system requirements (for the time) and now nobody wants to forego the huge market represented by the consoles. Crysis (talking about the initial PC version) was a strange situation that will probably never be repeated. the closest thing right now would be the PC demoscene (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demoscene) which has some examples of mind bending graphics, but nothing on the scale of Crysis.
and Doom, well I would point to the existence of John Carmack, who is an interesting character definitely but definitely one of a kind.
still, as I said the money and interest is there. whether or not the situation is comparable to the way things were back in "the good old days" I nevertheless have a certain amount of faith in todays engineers to push the field of "real-time photo-realistic graphics" forward
bitbydeath
Gold Member
This gens only just getting started, as for your examples though:
Ratchet and Clank didn’t just achieve faster speeds but also achieved a lot more content on screen, as briefly seen in the below gif.
Returnal is bullet-hell in 3D, which has never been done before.
Demons Souls is a remake so you shouldn’t expect any revelations there, and I don’t think we’ve had any other current-gen only games.
Ratchet and Clank didn’t just achieve faster speeds but also achieved a lot more content on screen, as briefly seen in the below gif.
Returnal is bullet-hell in 3D, which has never been done before.
Demons Souls is a remake so you shouldn’t expect any revelations there, and I don’t think we’ve had any other current-gen only games.
Magic Carpet
Gold Member
Space Harrier did it before with better music.
archangelmorph
Member
Nothing new here. Just evolution of graphics. Looks better and maybe plays a bit better, but it is still the same gameplay we know since (at least) PS2.This gens only just getting started, as for your examples though:
Ratchet and Clank didn’t just achieve faster speeds but also achieved a lot more content on screen, as briefly seen in the below gif.
Returnal is bullet-hell in 3D, which has never been done before.
Demons Souls is a remake so you shouldn’t expect any revelations there, and I don’t think we’ve had any other current-gen only games.
But that is almost always the problem, you can only do so much that it is still fun. But over time the ideas behind it get more refined etc. I guess we won't see that many revelations in gaming as almost every playable idea is already somewhere build into a game with more or less success.
New about xb1/ps4 is only that the worlds can be much bigger (or at least much easier to manage for the developer) and more detailed, but games like Daggerfall already did many things games that just got more popular again. But it was already doable in the past.
Currently games like "Dyson Sphere Program" just show me that the games can get much, much deeper that before. But like I already said, I don't expect to much expect for scale- and presentation-evolution. In even that presentation-evolition shrunk over the time as it gets much, much harder so see a big difference (except for resolution) in the current + last gen. Yes, there is RT, but still games could already look really convincing with the last generation (e.g. Assassins Creed Odyssey ....)
Bkdk
Member
Yeah, for me the physics front is lacking, AI is basically the same as 20 years ago. Also mobile games are now having better character design than western AAA games. The only advantage western AAA has is more detailed, but not better in terms of art design. All these factors lead to significant higher growth in mobile games while AAA has very little growth.
bitbydeath
Gold Member
That’s not real 3D, you can’t move where you want in the environment, things just fly towards you.
bitbydeath
Gold Member
More on screen is new, that’s a CPU/SSD bound task.
Belthazar
Member
Anything that was done gameplay-wise from PS2 onward could've been done on a PS2, it's delusional and very uninformed to think otherwise. The evolution was basically the fidelity you could do while implementing the gameplay you wanted, if you think something like Skyrim, Dragon's Dogma, etc. wouldn't run on a PS2 with paired down graphics I've got a bridge to sell you. Even the online, or haven't you heard of a little game called Final Fantasy XI?
Having said that, the evolution comes from having more resources available to execute their vision while also having a visually presentable product which.
Having said that, the evolution comes from having more resources available to execute their vision while also having a visually presentable product which.
lostinblue
Banned
No, because BOTW is actually fun.
That's like saying a segway and a unicycle are the same, but one is slightly more advanced because it conquered "physics".
Ubisoft open world games are fetch SHIT. If you ask me and there's nothing unscripted about them.
No. Plenty games God of War is more similar to than Dark Souls.
nkarafo
Member
Both Doom and Crysis were state of the art, super demanding games the year each one got released.true but Crysis was a particularly notable example of attempting "real time photo-realistic graphics"
it did that partially by being a PC exclusive (initially) with VERY high system requirements (for the time) and now nobody wants to forego the huge market represented by the consoles. Crysis (talking about the initial PC version) was a strange situation that will probably never be repeated. the closest thing right now would be the PC demoscene (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demoscene) which has some examples of mind bending graphics, but nothing on the scale of Crysis.
and Doom, well I would point to the existence of John Carmack, who is an interesting character definitely but definitely one of a kind.
still, as I said the money and interest is there. whether or not the situation is comparable to the way things were back in "the good old days" I nevertheless have a certain amount of faith in todays engineers to push the field of "real-time photo-realistic graphics" forward
Laptop1991
Member
No there isn't innovations now as the gaming industry doesn't want to innovate anymore, especially the publishers.
People have already mentioned some of the obvious ones like VR, or super fast data streaming which can and will significantly affect the way levels and worlds are designed (the portals in ratchet are the same). One thing I would love to see will be Ai/ML powered NPC dialogues (voice and script). Where NPC's will learn and know about themselves, the world they inhabit, the occurrence around them, and the other NPC's they interact with, and be able to hold dynamic endless, narrated conversations with one another, helping to make the world feel alive. Hopefully one day soon walking past NPC's will no longer result in hearing the same half a dozen lines of dialogue over and over.
levyjl1988
Banned
I want more puzzle box-designed levels like Dark Souls that weave themselves in and out which forces players to memorize the map. That sense of tension and relief when you find a bonfire and the slow inching of progress to venture into unknown territory is what is fascinating about the soul series.
You have to be cautious, know your surroundings, be observant of hints of blood stains ahead, etc. But that type of level design is a lost art to many as most level designs are boring, flat, uninspired, and only littered with collectibles. The excellent level design takes into consideration the horizontal and vertical planes, the shortcuts, the iconic reference point, etc.
You have to be cautious, know your surroundings, be observant of hints of blood stains ahead, etc. But that type of level design is a lost art to many as most level designs are boring, flat, uninspired, and only littered with collectibles. The excellent level design takes into consideration the horizontal and vertical planes, the shortcuts, the iconic reference point, etc.
64gigabyteram
Reverse groomer.
Honestly I think it would be AI. AI has come so far since the days of even 2019. We have Chatbots that can replicate human speech, tools like 15.ai that can replicate voice patterns, and even in the past we had insanely accurate ragdolls like euphoria that could replicate human movement. if these 3 technologies, combined with better AI that plays more like a human, were integrated into more games, we could see a physics jump on the level of 6th gen. Not only that but this would make rpgs far more immersive as you could actually talk to npcs and make your own choices rather than pick from a couple choices the developers gave you.
Dust-by-Monday
Member
Wait, what graphics innovations? There's barely anything beyond last gen right now.
Sosokrates
Report me if I continue to console war
custardbun01
Member
The PS5/Series X generation feel more like a “Pro-pro/One SS” generation. The games are all the same with better fps and lighting. We’ve had 0 in terms of innovations that have me excited.
JimRyanGOAT
Member
Even graphics nowadays are improving at a much slower rate.
1993
1998
And animations, physics, and AI have basically been stagnant since 2005
With better SSD expect more immersed & details worlds. especially in open-world games.
But AI, Animations, and Physics will only be slightly improved.
1993
1998
And animations, physics, and AI have basically been stagnant since 2005
With better SSD expect more immersed & details worlds. especially in open-world games.
But AI, Animations, and Physics will only be slightly improved.