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UK PoliGAF |OT2| - We Blue Ourselves

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Q

QuicheFontaine

Member
Crab said:
Honestly? Only to a very limited extent. Politicians don't really invent policies. They couldn't possibly. The world is enormously, enormously complex. Expecting one person who happens to be in charge of the Health Department or whatever to be able to reinvent the Health Department by themselves is just barmy. Policies are what think tanks and pressure groups are for. Politicians just decide between policies based on the values they promote; they don't figure out that A causes X and B causes Y, someone else figures that out and politicians decide whether they prefer X to Y. Representation is more important than smarts - especially when the smarts is kind of irrelevant. Why is someone who did English Literature at Oxford in a better position to know how much funding the social care system needs than someone who did nursing at Oxford Brookes?
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Well when it comes to funding I'd at least want an economist in charge! Maybe that's a separate issue though - a lot of politicians' roles don't have any formal "requirements" that you would see on job adverts in the private sector.

Anyway, in my book if you go to Oxbridge you must be pretty good at whatever it is you do, and I can't see that as being a bad thing per se.

phisheep said:
Do they these days? My offer from Oxford was two grade E at A-level, but that was a long time ago.
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They were lowballing your offer to fill their Welsh quota :p
 
C

CyclopsRock

Member
Crab said:
Honestly? Only to a very limited extent. Politicians don't really invent policies. They couldn't possibly. The world is enormously, enormously complex. Expecting one person who happens to be in charge of the Health Department or whatever to be able to reinvent the Health Department by themselves is just barmy. Policies are what think tanks and pressure groups are for. Politicians just decide between policies based on the values they promote; they don't figure out that A causes X and B causes Y, someone else figures that out and politicians decide whether they prefer X to Y. Representation is more important than smarts - especially when the smarts is kind of irrelevant. Why is someone who did English Literature at Oxford in a better position to know how much funding the social care system needs than someone who did nursing at Oxford Brookes?



It didn't used to be that way. Hansard keeps a track of this stuff and as late as the mid-80s, that figure was at 6%.
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On a similar note, this is why people who seem to target their hatred directly at Jeremy Hunt (haw haw haw sounds like cunt) are missing the fact that he's executing the party policy on the NHS. Remove him, throw someone else under the bus into the Health Ministry and you'll get the same thing.
 
M

Maledict

Member
CyclopsRock said:
On a similar note, this is why people who seem to target their hatred directly at Jeremy Hunt (haw haw haw sounds like cunt) are missing the fact that he's executing the party policy on the NHS. Remove him, throw someone else under the bus into the Health Ministry and you'll get the same thing.
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Hmm, not *actually* true. The minister does matter. Look at the Ministry of Justice under Ken Clarke and then Chris Grayling. Both Ministers under the same government with the same manifestos, but wildly different policies and tone. Grayling literally did the opposite of Clarke in some areas (Clarke wasn't stupid enough to privatise probation).

Ministers, particularly cabinet ministers, do weird a huge amount of power. Whilst they don't invent entire policies themselves, they set the direction for the department and the policies developed for the department come from that. There's a large amount of scope to go in different directions and on what each department focussed on (again, look at Pickles and his fucking obsession with bins for councils and how he approached local government funding).

In fact, that's a further example of Ministers mattering - cuts were proposed by ministers. That's why local government was obliterated but other areas saw minimal cuts.

Ministers really do matter in many ways.
 
C

CCS

Banned
Anyone who doubts that Oxford graduates should be the ones running the country just needs to go to Hassan's. Any university blessed with such good post-night out food is clearly chosen by god to run the country.
 
D

Deleted member 231381

Unconfirmed Member
CCS said:
Anyone who doubts that Oxford graduates should be the ones running the country just needs to go to Hassan's. Any university blessed with such good post-night out food is clearly chosen by god to run the country.
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I actually have an autographed Hassan's jumper from the man himself.
 
D

Deleted member 231381

Unconfirmed Member
By my fourth year, he'd actually let me buy on credit. We were like that. It was man love.
 
M

Maledict

Member
This thread has become the prime example of why Oxbridge students should be banned from parliament. Hell, public life in general.

Pair of champagne socialist cunts! ;-)
 
C

CCS

Banned
Crab said:
By my fourth year, he'd actually let me buy on credit. We were like that. It was man love.
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Wow, I am speechless with jealousy. The furthest I got in fourth year was him remembering me and my post-Sunday pub quiz chips, cheese, and chicken nuggets :p

Maledict said:
This thread has become the prime example of why Oxbridge students should be banned from parliament. Hell, public life in general.

Pair of champagne socialist cunts! ;-)
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Fourth most pro-Remain area in the country I believe we were. We're very champagne but we're very socialist. Bow ties and and no lies ;)
 
C

CyclopsRock

Member
Maledict said:
Hmm, not *actually* true. The minister does matter. Look at the Ministry of Justice under Ken Clarke and then Chris Grayling. Both Ministers under the same government with the same manifestos, but wildly different policies and tone. Grayling literally did the opposite of Clarke in some areas (Clarke wasn't stupid enough to privatise probation).

Ministers, particularly cabinet ministers, do weird a huge amount of power. Whilst they don't invent entire policies themselves, they set the direction for the department and the policies developed for the department come from that. There's a large amount of scope to go in different directions and on what each department focussed on (again, look at Pickles and his fucking obsession with bins for councils and how he approached local government funding).

In fact, that's a further example of Ministers mattering - cuts were proposed by ministers. That's why local government was obliterated but other areas saw minimal cuts.

Ministers really do matter in many ways.
Click to expand...

But which way around was it? By appointing Grayling or Clarke the leadership was making a statement of intent and moulding their policies accordingly. Or, rather, it's not like who is selected is random - the choice of minister is to a large extent, I think, a consequence of the policy chosen by the leadership rather than they setting the policy themselves. Put another way, if the Tory leadership didn't want a liberal Home office, they wouldn't have appointed Clarke.
 
M

Maledict

Member
Only fourth? Pah! Me and my highest remain area in the country look down on you air and your bow tie!

(Which reminds me of a valid point. Like trump, this wasn't a working class tecolt, it was a white working class revolt. Brixton hasn't gentrified that much yet and it went hugely remain)
 
M

Maledict

Member
CyclopsRock said:
But which way around was it? By appointing Grayling or Clarke the leadership was making a statement of intent and moulding their policies accordingly. Or, rather, it's not like who is selected is random - the choice of minister is to a large extent, I think, a consequence of the policy chosen by the leadership rather than they setting the policy themselves. Put another way, if the Tory leadership didn't want a liberal Home office, they wouldn't have appointed Clarke.
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Actually Cameron was very relaxed about departmental stuff. Partly because everything had to go through the quad anyways, but he gave Ministers significant room to do what they wanted as long as cuts were delivered. Much less controlling that under Brown (who tried to micromanage everything).

I agree they aren't given a completely free hand. But ministers have a lot more power to shape policy and direction than I think you give them credit for.
 
C

CyclopsRock

Member
Maledict said:
Actually Cameron was very relaxed about departmental stuff. Partly because everything had to go through the quad anyways, but he gave Ministers significant room to do what they wanted as long as cuts were delivered. Much less controlling that under Brown (who tried to micromanage everything).

I agree they aren't given a completely free hand. But ministers have a lot more power to shape policy and direction than I think you give them credit for.
Click to expand...

You may well be right. That said, what Hunt is doing at the Health department isn't some oddball divergence from their policy platform. If his successor takes a more... conciliatory path, it would I'm sure be purely an exercise in PR.
 
C

CCS

Banned
Maledict said:
Only fourth? Pah! Me and my highest remain area in the country look down on you air and your bow tie!

(Which reminds me of a valid point. Like trump, this wasn't a working class tecolt, it was a white working class revolt. Brixton hasn't gentrified that much yet and it went hugely remain)
Click to expand...

Older whites especially.
 
M

Maledict

Member
CyclopsRock said:
You may well be right. That said, what Hunt is doing at the Health department isn't some oddball divergence from their policy platform. If his successor takes a more... conciliatory path, it would I'm sure be purely an exercise in PR.
Click to expand...

The devil is often in the details. Whilst the broad thrust would remain the same, some of the stuff hunt has done which has really pissed off people could be reversed for some easy wins and improvements.
 
D

Deleted member 231381

Unconfirmed Member
Thought you might like to know I'm submitting my CV to stand as a Labour candidate. /shrugs
 
C

CCS

Banned
Also, there's a fantastic Brexit-related crossword that's going round at work at the moment. I can post it on here tomorrow if anyone would be interested? :)
 
D

Deleted member 231381

Unconfirmed Member
CCS said:
Well at least if you don't get it you can find a nice ewe to console yourself with ;)
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At least we resisted the English instead of being bought out.

Celts > Picts
 
phisheep

phisheep

NeoGAF's Chief Barrister
Crab said:
Thought you might like to know I'm submitting my CV to stand as a Labour candidate. /shrugs
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Good luck sir Crab!

I've probably mentioned this before, but I knew one prospective MP - who was working for me at the time - had the best ever excuse for not turning up to work "I accidentally got elected to Parliament". He's still there too.

You will probably not be able to post here whether you get elected - we need to arrange some code words for your acceptance speech. Three consecutive sentences beginning with the word "believe" should do it.

CCS said:
Also, there's a fantastic Brexit-related crossword that's going round at work at the moment. I can post it on here tomorrow if anyone would be interested? :)
Click to expand...

Oh yes please CCS. And while I remember, would there be any appetite for a Cryptic Crosswords OT - I've been mulling over that for a while?
 
D

Deleted member 231381

Unconfirmed Member
Standing in the seat I am in this particular election, I think the chance I could get accidentally elected is so vanishingly remote as to not be worth considering. If I even got to be the candidate that would be something.
 
Q

QuicheFontaine

Member
Godspeed Crab, best of luck.

And yes to the Cryptic Crossword OT Phi! I'm a big fan of the Telegraph cryptic. I've got one of those big compilation books you see in WH Smith's. Excellent for the pub.
 
phisheep

phisheep

NeoGAF's Chief Barrister
Crab said:
Standing in the seat I am in this particular election, I think the chance I could get accidentally elected is so vanishingly remote as to not be worth considering. If I even got to be the candidate that would be something.
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That's what the other guy thought too.
 
R

Roberto Larcos

Member
Got a little prediction league going, who wants in? Could make election night more fun / less depressing, depending on your perspective. Current prize pool is a bottle of something.

Conservative Party seats:
Green Party seats
Labour seats:
Lib Dem seats:
SNP seats:
Plaid Cymru seats:
UKIP seats:
Independently held seats:
Seats held by other parties:

BONUS:
Labour wipe-out in Scotland?
More Conservative votes than Labour in Scotland?
More Conservative seats than Labour in Wales?
The Portillo award goes to..?
First resignation of the night?
How many party leaders will resign?
Seat for Nuttall?
Margin of victory by seats:
Margin of victory by votes:

Scoring works as follows: 1 point per correct seat allocation. 10 points per correct bonus question. For margin of victory by seats, 50 points for a perfect answer, lose 1 point per seat away from that perfect answer that you were. For margin of victory by votes, 50 points for a perfect answer (rounded to 100,000), lose one point per 100,000 that you were away from thay perfect answer. Margins will be between party with most seats / votes and the party with the second most seats / votes. Portillo award winner will be decided on the night.

Quote to reveal the Excel spreadsheet, if you want to have a gander at QuicheFontaine or Crab's predictions.

 
M

mo60

Member
Roberto Larcos said:
Got a little prediction league going, who wants in? Could make election night more fun / less depressing, depending on your perspective. Current prize pool is a bottle of something.

Conservative Party seats:376
Green Party seats:3
Labour seats:174
Lib Dem seats:22
SNP seats:54
Plaid Cymru seats:3
UKIP seats:0
Independently held seats:0
Seats held by other parties:18

BONUS:
Labour wipe-out in Scotland?Yes
More Conservative votes than Labour in Scotland?Yes
More Conservative seats than Labour in Wales?Yes
The Portillo award goes to..? Clive lewis
First resignation of the night? None
How many party leaders will resign?1
Seat for Nuttall?No
Margin of victory by seats:202
Margin of victory by votes:3100000

Scoring works as follows: 1 point per correct seat allocation. 10 points per correct bonus question. For margin of victory by seats, 50 points for a perfect answer, lose 1 point per seat away from that perfect answer that you were. For margin of victory by votes, 50 points for a perfect answer (rounded to 100,000), lose one point per 100,000 that you were away from thay perfect answer. Margins will be between party with most seats / votes and the party with the second most seats / votes. Portillo award winner will be decided on the night.

Quote to reveal the Excel spreadsheet, if you want to have a gander at QuicheFontaine or Crab's predictions.

Click to expand...

My prediction is a bit lower compared to other posters so far since I don't expect the tories to continue to poll were there are as the campaign goes on.
 
Q

QuicheFontaine

Member
CyclopsRock said:
Jesus christ, Quiche... That's one foot in the grave if ever I heard of it.
Click to expand...

Haha, I think I've mentally been a 50 year old my whole life. Now I'm 30 I feel like it's just about becoming acceptable to like the things I do. I'm just getting into gardening for instance :p

CCS said:
Here's the Brexit crossword for anyone who fancies a go. At points it is a bit more of a trivia quiz than a proper crossword but I hope people enjoy :)

https://www.dropbox.com/s/2ybnp9z2flecclp/The Great Brexit Crossword.pdf?dl=0
Click to expand...

What's going on with the numbering? That's not how crosswords work!
 
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