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[Theonik]

I don't entirely agree with that IFS report on the cost of making education free but I find it hilarious that they estimate a short term cost of about 1bn pounds given the £1.5bn DUP bribe the Tories just handed out.

IIRC the main reason no government went with a graduate tax is that EU rules mean that if we give our people free degree education we have to give it to all EU citizens that want it as well. Hence the loan system that is almost the same thing in all but name but lets them charge EU citizens that study here.

That doesn't seem right. 1) EU students are as entitled to student loans as anyone else, they are also as likely to receive write-offs. 2) EU students are not of equal status as UK students. They are not entitled to maintenance loans for example.

 

[Hyams]

I feel obligated to mention that Corbyn and the Labour Manifesto really aren't that hardcore left wing, certainly no moreso than other mainstream social democratic parties in Europe.

The trains are already owned in part and operated for profit by government (just not the UK government), and stopping austerity is a cool and good idea all round.

The Lib Dems seem to be trying to place themselves roughly to the right of where 1997 Blair was, before he decided he was the messiah and all.

Oddly enough, Farron's Lib Dems were to the left of Labour on welfare spending, immigration, and accepting refugees.

It remains to be seen where Cable will try to position the party. He's talked about them being pro-business and pro-welfare, but he seems to be less pro-immigration, and I don't believe he's mentioned refugees at all (unlike Farron, who mentioned them whenever he could).

Ideally Cable would position the party in such a way so as to attract Tory voters. Maybe then I'll get the glorious Lab/Lib coalition I've wanted for the last few years

 

[JonnyDBrit]

Crazy to see serving cabinet ministers arguing in public against the current Government's policy. I guess they've no fear of party discipline or collective responsibility anymore, which is certainly something.

I suppose Hammond did launch a pretty thinly veiled attack on Johnson last week, so turnabout's fair pay.

Probably also getting themselves set up for whenever May finally goes, or gets saddled with a leadership challenge. They get their soundbite or quote that they were against the pay cap, and excuse the vote they just had on the party whip and/or the need to form a government, rather than as a reflection of how they really feel.

 

[D4Danger]

wut?

I live for this stuff

Probably also getting themselves set up for whenever May finally goes, or gets saddled with a leadership challenge. They get their soundbite or quote that they were against the pay cap, and excuse the vote they just had on the party whip and/or the need to form a government, rather than as a reflection of how they really feel.

that's exactly what it is. These policies are toxic and they know they'll have to fight Labour over them.

 

[TimmmV]

I don't entirely agree with that IFS report on the cost of making education free but I find it hilarious that they estimate a short term cost of about 1bn pounds given the £1.5bn DUP bribe the Tories just handed out.


That doesn't seem right. 1) EU students are as entitled to student loans as anyone else, they are also as likely to receive write-offs. 2) EU students are not of equal status as UK students. They are not entitled to maintenance loans for example.

Is this a new thing? Because I definitely got them (German citizen, but resident in the UK)

That was on the "Plan 1" student loans, when tuition fees were 'only' £3k a year

 

[Theonik]

Is this a new thing? Because I definitely got them (German citizen, but resident in the UK)

That was on the "Plan 1" student loans, when tuition fees were 'only' £3k a year

You get tuition loans but not the maintenance loan. You would have to have settled into the country for at least 5 years to get anything. Most EU citizens would be denied for one reason or another.

 

[Toytown Assassin]

That doesn't seem right. 1) EU students are as entitled to student loans as anyone else, they are also as likely to receive write-offs. 2) EU students are not of equal status as UK students. They are not entitled to maintenance loans for example.

So under the loan system they do make them pay?

The point about a graduate tax system is the EU students could get the free tuition and then not stay around to pay the taxes that fund it. Of course that applies to all students so a tax would need to be low enough not to scare people out of the country but native brits are a lot more likely to stay and work here than EU citizens just coming for a free education.

 

[Theonik]

So under the loan system they do make them pay?

The point about a graduate tax system is the EU students could get the free tuition and then not stay around to pay the taxes that fund it. Of course that applies to all students so a tax would need to be low enough not to scare people out of the country but native brits are a lot more likely to stay and work here than EU citizens just coming for a free education.

Arguably not. UK's tuition system is subsidised by the taxpayer. You need them to stay if you want to get any meaningful value out of it. Moreover if they left collecting becomes very difficult anyway administering loans of people moving overseas is extremely expensive.

And besides. How many EU citizens do you think are able to drop some £35-40k in their own funds to study here and are just doing it for free education.

 

[CCS]

While we're still on a bit of a quiet Sunday after the madness, may I re-recommend Dead Ringers. Very strong episode this week, Fox News being a particular highlight: http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b08w11zk#play

Guys, you need to listen to this. The Laura Kuenssberg section about 20 minutes in is hilarious.

 

[Beefy]

Can't wait for my ESA to go back to £120 a week. Tories are going to stop austerity and become dope....

 

[QuicheFontaine]

Yes. It's more progressive to simply have it as a progressive graduate tax fixed for x number of years. But funding it from general taxation is probably ideal. Even though plumbers might complain.

I would complain! If I work hard and pay off my student loan why should I have to keep paying to pay for all the louts who just went to uni to put off being an adult for three years?

The current system is good. You get a choice at 18 to either go to uni or not. If you go, you'll have to pay back the money. If you don't think you'll be able to pay it back, don't go. I actually thought that was one of the reasons to introduce tuition fees - so that people would think seriously about whether or not they needed to go to uni.

 

[Mr. Sam]

Despite being a student relatively recently, I've really no desire to get involved in this discussion. That said, I do think it's a pity that education is being treated as primarily - if not solely - a commodity; a bit of paper as a means to get a job. My time at university was horrendous but I've no doubt that people find it incredibly fulfilling in and of itself.

 

[CS_Dan]

I would complain! If I work hard and pay off my student loan why should I have to keep paying to pay for all the louts who just went to uni to put off being an adult for three years?

To play devil's advocate: do you not do this already, if most people don't get anywhere close to paying it back themselves?

 

[Theonik]

I would complain! If I work hard and pay off my student loan why should I have to keep paying to pay for all the louts who just went to uni to put off being an adult for three years?

The current system is good. You get a choice at 18 to either go to uni or not. If you go, you'll have to pay back the money. If you don't think you'll be able to pay it back, don't go. I actually thought that was one of the reasons to introduce tuition fees - so that people would think seriously about whether or not they needed to go to uni.

It hasn't quite worked out that way though. Ultimately what has happened is that as time went by and education became more common having a degree became less of an advantage and more of a requirement for employment. Meanwhile we have not really given incentives to people to seek out apprenticeships and alternative careers. You could at 18 opt to get a degree in equine studies completely paid for by the taxpayer. Sure it would be a loan but if you don't get a job that helps you pay it off then it gets written off. What the actual system of loans we have now was actually intended to do was to allow the government to reduce the deficit without actually doing anything. It's pretty nifty actually because loans don't get included in government spending even though they are indeed that.

 

[TimmmV]

I would complain! If I work hard and pay off my student loan why should I have to keep paying to pay for all the louts who just went to uni to put off being an adult for three years?

The current system is good. You get a choice at 18 to either go to uni or not. If you go, you'll have to pay back the money. If you don't think you'll be able to pay it back, don't go. I actually thought that was one of the reasons to introduce tuition fees - so that people would think seriously about whether or not they needed to go to uni.

If I don't have any kids, why should I be paying for primary schools?
If I walk everywhere why should I be paying for new roads to b built?
If I'm not sick why should I be paying for all those sick people?

etc etc

People pay for these things because the policy to pay for them helps the country in general, so each person is indirectly better off for it

It's been the case for a long time that a degree is basically an entry level requirement for most office jobs now. So the market is basically forcing people to go to uni, even if their job doesn't really require them to do it.

Tuition fees aren't really fair when they're so important to have a chance of even a mediocre job at the moment

 

[CyclopsRock]

To play devil's advocate: do you not do this already, if most people don't get anywhere close to paying it back themselves?

They only brought in fees 19 years ago. Surely *no one* has failed to pay it back yet?

 

[Ghost]

For me it goes way beyond student loans, I think it's just old thinking to say that the state should only worry about educating people to the age of 18. A lot of us will live into triple digits, working for maybe 60 years, people will be a lot happier and a lot more productive if the system is there to help you either to keep up with changes in your own industry, or move to different ones as you get older.

 

[QuicheFontaine]

To play devil's advocate: do you not do this already, if most people don't get anywhere close to paying it back themselves?

I'm not exactly chuffed at the pain coming in circa 20/30 years when all of that debt magically disappears.

They only brought in fees 19 years ago. Surely *no one* has failed to pay it back yet?

You must be the devil's devil's advocate

 

[Theonik]

I'm not exactly chuffed at the pain coming in circa 20/30 years when all of that debt magically disappears.

I mean if that's your way of thinking all of that government debt probably won't be a problem for another 100 years or a few major recessions. Maybe if the public decided to vote for something objectively damaging to UK economic growth...

 

[Rodelero]

I would complain! If I work hard and pay off my student loan why should I have to keep paying to pay for all the louts who just went to uni to put off being an adult for three years?

The current system is good. You get a choice at 18 to either go to uni or not. If you go, you'll have to pay back the money. If you don't think you'll be able to pay it back, don't go. I actually thought that was one of the reasons to introduce tuition fees - so that people would think seriously about whether or not they needed to go to uni.

1) The current system (which, presumably, you didn't experience) still sees the successful paying for the unsuccessful. People who get unlucky under the current (i.e. post 2012 system) could end up paying back £100,000, maybe even £150,000 depending on how the economy goes just to pay for their bachelors' degree. Others will pay almost nothing.

2) The current system does very little to discourage those going to university, as you say, to delay real life. They aren't the ones who are going to pay significant amounts back.

3) It's really questionable to put the choice down that simply because the amount you pay back is wildly unpredictable depending on both how you do after university and how the economy does. The old system (that I am under, that I suppose you are under) was quite predictable in this respect. The new one is absolutely not.

4) "If you don't think you'll be able to pay it back" makes no sense. It is a loan, paid like a tax, that is written off after thirty years. Nobody is going to be in a position where they can't pay it back practically, but many will find that their ability to build wealth is seriously impinged by the fact they're having to pay this super tax.

 

[Royal_Phalanx]

Other European countries have free/cheap tuition. How awful and unprogressive. /s

More education is a good thing. Upskilling your workforce is a good thing. Having you pay £9000+ for it is atrocious. Take note that fees make retraining basically impossible. You don't get loans for a second degree.

 

[Theonik]

Other European countries have free/cheap tuition. How awful and unprogressive. /s

More education is a good thing. Upskilling your workforce is a good thing. Having you pay £9000+ for it is atrocious. Take note that fees make retraining basically impossible. You don't get loans for a second degree.

The UK has some of the highest higher education takeup in the EU though 48%+ now vs only 27% in Germany.

 

[hohoXD123]

wut?

Is this satire? This must be satire.

 

[JonathanEx]

Is this satire? This must be satire.

It's a Telegraph, premium, blog.

They don't know what satire is.

 

[QuicheFontaine]

I mean if that's your way of thinking all of that government debt probably won't be a problem for another 100 years or a few major recessions. Maybe if the public decided to vote for something objectively damaging to UK economic growth...

Global warming probably won't be a problem for 100 years, but I'm still not chuffed about it.

 

[Coriolanus]

I would complain! If I work hard and pay off my student loan why should I have to keep paying to pay for all the louts who just went to uni to put off being an adult for three years?

The current system is good. You get a choice at 18 to either go to uni or not. If you go, you'll have to pay back the money. If you don't think you'll be able to pay it back, don't go. I actually thought that was one of the reasons to introduce tuition fees - so that people would think seriously about whether or not they needed to go to uni.

Tbf i kinda feel that we could adopt the same system for secondary education. Students will get a choice at 11 or whatever to either move on to second ed or not. If you go, you'll have to pay back the money. If you don't think you'll be able to pay it back, don't go. People should think seriously about whether or not they need to go to second ed.

I mean, have you seen the latest math thread? People can't simplify shit. All that wasted money.

The UK has some of the highest higher education takeup in the EU though 48%+ now vs only 27% in Germany.

when i was looking that up the other day (and marveling at SK's amazing progress in that regard), couldnt help but find the russkie stats... peculiar.

 

[QuicheFontaine]

Tbf i kinda feel that we could adopt the same system for secondary education. Students will get a choice at 11 or whatever to either move on to second ed or not. If you go, you'll have to pay back the money. If you don't think you'll be able to pay it back, don't go. People should think seriously about whether or not they need to go to second ed.

I mean, have you seen the latest math thread? People can't simplify shit. All that wasted money.

Yank detected!

A couple of big differences with what you're proposing:
i) 18 year olds are adults,
ii) education up to 16 is a right, whereas tertiary education isn't.

 

[Linkstrikesback]

Yank detected!

A couple of big differences with what you're proposing:
i) 18 year olds are adults,
ii) education up to 16 is a right, whereas tertiary education isn't.

Education is a right up to 18 in the UK (edit : oops, this is actually just for England)now. Typically either as a levels or some form of internship, but yes, you're right.

 

[Royal_Phalanx]

The UK has some of the highest higher education takeup in the EU though 48%+ now vs only 27% in Germany.

That because Germany places a high emphasis on apprenticeships and on the job training. You don't need to go to university to find well paying skilled work in Germany.

£2000-3000 is what I would call a reasonable price per year for a degree course. It is possible to save up for that. Now I have to somehow find £27000 if I wanted to return to university to take another degree. Which makes getting into web development hard. Graduate schemes that take people from any subject area and trains them to work in the tech industry are ridiculously competitive. I've applied to some last year and didn't get any offers.

 

[Theonik]

That because Germany places a high emphasis on apprenticeships and on the job training. You don't need to go to university to find well paying skilled work in Germany.

Same applies to the UK. In fact, skilled labour is in very low supply! We need to import builders from Romania!

The point here though is that free tuition for the UK is also more expensive as a result of that.

 

[Royal_Phalanx]

Same applies to the UK. In fact, skilled labour is in very low supply! We need to import builders from Romania!

The point here though is that free tuition for the UK is also more expensive as a result of that.

The previous price of £3000 was quite reasonable though. Is there a benefit to having it be £9000, other than make up for government funding that isn't there anymore? Maybe universities should offer less subjects to make free/cheap tuition possible (get rid of stuff like media studies).

 

[Kotetsu534]

Yank detected!

A couple of big differences with what you're proposing:
i) 18 year olds are adults,
ii) education up to 16 is a right, whereas tertiary education isn't.

Eh, education was once not a right at all. Times change. I think any reasonable observer has to concede that our young, collectively, even when they play by the rules, stick in at school and higher/further education and generally do their best to turn themselves into productive citizens, are struggling. I can throw the usual statistics around to show this (e.g. increase in average age at moving out, decrease in earnings by age 30 in real terms compared to recent generations, terrible wage growth, continued increase in average age in first owning property, continued increase in average age of marriage etc.). The least we can do is to stop making their situation worse by lumping long-term debt on them for making the bet that tertiary education will be worth more to them in the long-run than pursuing employment straight out of school. We should probably be doing a lot more than that (as some of the sharper conservative analysts and columnists, if sadly few Tory politicians, are picking up).

 

[Dougald]

The previous price of £3000 was quite reasonable though. Is there a benefit to having it be £9000, other than make up for government funding that isn't there anymore? Maybe universities should offer less subjects to make free/cheap tuition possible (get rid of stuff like media studies).

How the bar moves... I remember being up in arms about the fees being increased to £3k. Simpler times...

 

[Spuck-uk]

How the bar moves... I remember being up in arms about the fees being increased to £3k. Simpler times...

I remember the fees being re-introduced at all!

 

[Protome]

Coming from Scotland, I think it's pretty insane that England still has tuition fees at all. It's such a backwards idea.

I would complain! If I work hard and pay off my student loan why should I have to keep paying to pay for all the louts who just went to uni to put off being an adult for three years?

If only those people who went to uni but ended up not making enough to pay off their student loan just worked harder. Lazy bastards.

 

[CyclopsRock]

The previous price of £3000 was quite reasonable though. Is there a benefit to having it be £9000, other than make up for government funding that isn't there anymore? Maybe universities should offer less subjects to make free/cheap tuition possible (get rid of stuff like media studies).

IIRC "classroom" subjects effectively end up subsidising those subjects which cost a whole lot more than £9k + whatever they get from the government to put on (typically these are subjects that require specialised equipment or lab time, like engineering and bio-medical stuff). So you have poor historians sitting there getting charged £9k a year for what amounts to an Amazon wishlist because universities aren't allowed to charge Engineering students what their courses actually cost to teach.

Edit: Further to that, IMO if you wanna go to University for non-job-related reasons, maybe you should just get a library card or internet connection instead? I'm all for expanding your knowledge horizons, but there are a billion ways to learn things that aren't a 3-year bachelors degree, ya know?

 

[Coriolanus]

Yank detected!

A couple of big differences with what you're proposing:
i) 18 year olds are adults,
ii) education up to 16 is a right, whereas tertiary education isn't.

Gods no.

And yes on the differences. And i'd elaborate on the point, but kotetsuGold4 already did mostly of that. Wot im saying is that, much like how secondary education came to be seen as a right, so should tertiary. Cuz having more marginally less ignorant people should be a benefit to the country.

Take the money from trident or whatever if needed.
-
also im totes assuming you did a face like this when you read that bit, quiche.

 

[Walshicus]

Of course education should be free. What sort of arse backwards dimwitted moronic system would actually want to disincentivise its people from being educated? When has penalising self improvement ever not been a stupid idea?

 

[QuicheFontaine]

Coming from Scotland, I think it's pretty insane that England still has tuition fees at all. It's such a backwards idea.

If only those people who went to uni but ended up not making enough to pay off their student loan just worked harder. Lazy bastards.

I know, I know. Not a popular concept on here.

Gods no.

And yes on the differences. And i'd elaborate on the point, but kotetsuGold4 already did mostly of that. Wot im saying is that, much like how secondary education came to be seen as a right, so should tertiary. Cuz having more marginally less ignorant people should be a benefit to the country.

Take the money from trident or whatever if needed.
-
also im totes assuming you did a face like this when you read that bit, quiche.

Haha, maybe I jumped the gun a bit. And yes I love that scene. "Drei glaese", awesome.

 

[Theonik]

The previous price of £3000 was quite reasonable though. Is there a benefit to having it be £9000, other than make up for government funding that isn't there anymore? Maybe universities should offer less subjects to make free/cheap tuition possible (get rid of stuff like media studies).

It's government accounting voodoo arguably. Universities receive state funding, increasing tuition or rather removing grants and replacing them with loans allows the government to provide the funding while also pretending they cut the deficit when they have not. They just changed the way it's measured!

Because of how big the subscription to education is, the cost of running these institution also balloons but then you have courses that rely a lot on equipment like medicine or engineering. But you actually want to incentivise those courses so you wouldn't charge more anyway.

In a way student loans and tuition fees have both contributed to this. The maintenance loan replacing income assessed maintenance grants, and introduced by Thatcher in 1990 meant that it was now easier for middle class families to attend university. Then in 1997 Blair was looking for ways to fund universities so introduced tuition of £1k. The problem is that it quickly incentivised universities to try and get more students which means trying to offer more courses to accommodate them. Cost increases so there is a need to increase fees further. Remember no-one is paying that money so until the write-off happens we can pretend not to have spent it! Fees raise to £3k backbenchers like Corbyn complain and there is a review. Review finds that the raise doesn't really stop students and infact you should raise to £9k to make the courses more sustainable. And then LD-Tory comes in. Etc etc.

Basically we need to go back and re-evaluate the whole thing as this is getting out of hand. Universities in the UK are also pretty expensive to run vs say German ones due to offering their own accommodation, services etc etc all funded by the taxpayer. Actually you can look up some statistics here.

 

[Lagamorph]

I can certainly get behind STEM courses being paid for by the government, or at least heavily subsidised.
But if someone wants to do an Art History or Poetry degree then the state/taxpayer should not be contributing toward that.

 

[Theonik]

I can certainly get behind STEM courses being paid for by the government, or at least heavily subsidised.
But if someone wants to do an Art History or Poetry degree then the state/taxpayer should not be contributing toward that.

Problem: Those degrees cost very little to teach whereas STEM costs a fuckton.

 

[Royal_Phalanx]

Enrol fewer students who would normally take those less useful subjects anyway and divert that to STEM education then. German university is so hard a lot of people drop out of their degrees. Really should focus more on apprenticeships (the useful kind, like software development apprenticeships, not the crappy "retail apprentice" bullshit).

 

[Coriolanus]

Googling around, seems that the economy sure gets its money back from investments in that area tho

Arts and culture worth more than £850m to UK export trade

Report shows arts budget of less than 0.1% of public spending delivers four times that in contribution to GDP

Arts and culture delivers a significant return on relatively small levels of government spending and directly leads to at least £856m of spending by tourists in the UK, according to a new report seeking to analyse the value of the arts to the modern economy.

Analysis by the Centre for Economics and Business Research (CEBR) shows that the arts budget accounts for less than 0.1% of public spending, yet it makes up 0.4% of the nation's GDP.

The report is published amid fears that the arts will take another big hit when George Osborne announces his spending review in June.

2013 tho

Telegraph wrote a report in a similar vein

 

[Royal_Phalanx]

Losing EU citizenship is going to be baaad for people who want to take degrees (taught in English) for a lower price in mainland Europe. UK students after 2019 are going to have to pay international fees after that. All those opportunities gone because of short sighted people. See, this is part of why I'm so damned hostile to Leave voters on here.

 

[Theonik]

Enrol fewer students who would normally take those less useful subjects anyway and divert that to STEM education then. German university is so hard a lot of people drop out of their degrees. Really should focus more on apprenticeships (the useful kind, like software development apprenticeships, not the crappy "retail apprentice" bullshit).

Who determines how useful they are. Besides, all of these are choices. We can afford free education. We choose not to. Besides universal tertiary education only makes degrees less valuable but also a barrier of entry for most jobs even if they don't require them.

 

[Beefy]

Trump needs to fuck off with Charlie Gard tweet

 

[Protome]

I know, I know. Not a popular concept on here.

I for one am shocked that nonsense claims like that aren't popular.

 

[Huw_Dawson]

So I have just had a lovely evening listening to three MPs speaking at a small event in central London. I also met two of them afterward, which was really cool. There is something neat about politics in this country sometimes being very close to the populace - your representative is never all that far away.

Oh, one of the MPs who spoke was Cable - he had some interesting points about tuition fees, mostly due to the original Labour reasoning behind inventing them (the Blunkett/Johnson argument of 'why am I paying for an Etonite's PPE') but saying we will need to look at fees again due to how unpopular they are.

 

[CyclopsRock]

I've stated this before, but I think secondary education should be based around an RPG skill tree. If you min-max you should be able to get to what's currently degree level material when you're still at school, and if you don't give a fuck about playing Nessun Dorma on a clapped out keyboard (throwing in the odd "DJ! DJ!") You can just junk it at an early age. Alternatively if you decide late on maths actually is of interest to you, you can go "back" and do the more basic lessons even when older.

Obviously I'd have rolled a rogue.