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Upscalers, CRTs, PVMs & RGB: Retro gaming done right!

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J

Jinroh

Member
I have a question for you guys who own Bravia TVs. I connected my PS2 on my TV and tried playing some gamecube games using my wii and wiiu with devolution.

Whatever I do, and whatever the input is (scart, hdmi, etc.) the aspect ratio is never correct. I just can't have a normal 4:3, it's more of a 3.8:3, meaning everything is a little bit stretched vertically.

And I just can't play games knowing the aspect ratio is wrong. So I have a few questions:

1) Does anyone know where it comes from? Why can't my bravia 42" TV display a proper 4:3 aspect ratio?

2) If I used a device like a framemeister, would it solve the problem? Or would I end up having a beautiful picture quality suffering from a wrong aspect ratio?

It's a really big issue for me, it makes retro gaming impossible on my TV. I'm just way too sensitive to aspect ratio issues.
 
J

Jinroh

Member
Yep I have the latest firmware, 4.117. And my tv is a KDL-40HX800.

Are you really sure your 4:3 aspect ratio is correct?

edit: Ok, I made some tests, and I understand a bit more why the ratio seems incorrect. Actually the TV outputs a correct 4:3. For example the main menu of the PS2 has a correct aspect ratio. But once I start a game, the TV stretches it in 16:9. The problem is, it doesn't fill the whole screen, there are little black bars on the sides. I have no idea why it happens, but it's the same for my PS2, Wii, WiiU, etc. when I start old games.

So when I change it into 4:3, it compresses the picture, including the black bars, and it results in a wrong aspect ratio.

In my PS2 menu the screen is 66.5 centimeters wide. Once I start a game, it's only 62 centimeters wide. So it does include two black bars on each side for god knows what reason.

Does anyone have an idea of a potential fix?

edit2:
This picture I found shows the problem:
http://i534.photobucket.com/albums/ee342/stvd_games/ikaruga.jpg
You can clearly see the black bars on the sides. Any way to get rid of them?
 
X

Xtyle

Member
Plunged down Some cash for xrgb mini. Going to have to pick up xrgb cable for Ps2, cable for Saturn, cable and mod for turbo duo (this one I bought years ago don't work so well so may have to fix it as well). Hope this is all worth it... If anything, playing RE4 on Wii without looking like shit at least will be nice, right
 
B

BocoDragon

or, How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Realize This Assgrab is Delicious
bigben85 said:
Plunged down Some cash for xrgb mini. Going to have to pick up xrgb cable for Ps2, cable for Saturn, cable and mod for turbo duo (this one I bought years ago don't work so well so may have to fix it as well). Hope this is all worth it... If anything, playing RE4 on Wii without looking like shit at least will be nice, right
Click to expand...
Upscaling won't do that much for 480p content like Wii games, actually. It makes for a clean image, but it's every lesser resolution that benefits the most.
 
X

Xtyle

Member
BocoDragon said:
Upscaling won't do that much for 480p content like Wii games, actually. It makes for a clean image, but it's every lesser resolution that benefits the most.
Click to expand...

What about PS2 games (I suppose most of them are 480i?), and PS1 games running on PS2? And Wii VC 16 bit games, those look good?

Also, anyone with the XRGB Mini, I have to get the RGB/SCART seperately, correct?
For Saturn, all I see on ebay are the SCART cables. Does it mean then I need a coverter/adapter...?

Basically what do I need to run my Saturn and PS2 with the Mini? This whole idea of retro gaming with proper video/sound sound awesome but is also damn confusing on how to set it up.

Edit:
So I found that if I get a scart cable for my Saturn, I would need a SCART to Mini adapter, does anyone know what this converter is? I can't seem to find it on Ebay.
 
S

Sixfortyfive

He who pursues two rabbits gets two rabbits.
X

Xtyle

Member
Sixfortyfive said:
If the only RGB devices you have are Japanese (such as the XRGB), then you'd be fine with that style of cable, but the adapter baphomet 666 posted and Euro SCART cables are worthy investments if you have or ever plan to get SCART devices.
Click to expand...

Do these 2 have same screen quality though?
 
X

Xtyle

Member
converter bought! :) Thanks for the link, baphomet. Man, these cable stuff is cheap, but NOT that cheap when you put it all together.

can't wait to do some proper retro gaming. The only reason I have stopped playing older games/game systems is pretty much due to ugly image output on my 60'' HDTV...and I have had it for almost 7 years:(
 
baphomet

baphomet

Member
rothgar said:
Excuse the noob question but does anybody knows if this VGA converter will work with the NESRGB board? I figured this might convert the 15khz signal to a 30khz VGA signal that could plug directly into my monitor.
http://amzn.com/B005G8KSP8
Click to expand...

From what i saw on nfg it will. Youll need to wire the output of the nesrgb to whatever the gbs 8220 accepts for rgb though. It only says it accepts rgbhv on that amazon page, but they specifically said it support regular rgbs on that forum.

Also, youll definitely enjoy your purchases bigben.
 
IrishNinja

IrishNinja

Member
^just to add: i ended up going with PS2 via RGB, after comparing it to component. not many games i own support 480p, and i cant really say without some good screenshots, but i liked the look a bit better, personally. image quality just seemed nicer overall, but YMMV.
 
S

sixteen-bit

Member
IrishNinja said:
^just to add: i ended up going with PS2 via RGB, after comparing it to component. not many games i own support 480p, and i cant really say without some good screenshots, but i liked the look a bit better, personally. image quality just seemed nicer overall, but YMMV.
Click to expand...

Makes sense. Component video (YPbPr) is luma-based like S-Video. RGB would offer better picture and color separation.
 
Y

Yes Boss!

Member
Speaking of S-Video, what is the consensus on it? I was trying my PCE and it looks like straight ass...not much better than composite. Perhaps it is just the S-Video mod on my PCE is of low quality.
 
B

BocoDragon

or, How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Realize This Assgrab is Delicious
Yes Boss! said:
Speaking of S-Video, what is the consensus on it? I was trying my PCE and it looks like straight ass...not much better than composite. Perhaps it is just the S-Video mod on my PCE is of low quality.
Click to expand...
On SNES, for example, RGB is only marginally better than S-video. I don't think I'd call it ass... Just not as perfect as RGB.
 
H

HaL64

Member
BocoDragon said:
On SNES, for example, RGB is only marginally better than S-video. I don't think I'd call it ass... Just not as perfect as RGB.
Click to expand...

That's not been my experience.
Of course I've only done this comparison on a sony PVM. The RGB looks great, and s-video looks like puke.
Maybe it just depends on the display.
 
S

Shadow Hog

Member
From my experience, RGB and S-Video look very similar. RGB eliminates some halos around high-contrast areas in the image (eg: a pixel-wide black outline on an object with a very bright color, like most things in Earthbound), and can eliminate the jailbars in Genesis video output, but that's about it.
 
H

HaL64

Member
Shadow Hog said:
From my experience, RGB and S-Video look very similar. RGB eliminates some halos around high-contrast areas in the image (eg: a pixel-wide black outline on an object with a very bright color, like most things in Earthbound), and can eliminate the jailbars in Genesis video output, but that's about it.
Click to expand...

Are you sure you are looking at RGB on a good quality display?
The differences are huge on my Sony PVM.
I have a Sony Trinitron TV where the differences aren't as big, but still worth it. However, that was using an RGB->component converter.

I can post some pics of my setup, but this shows enough of the difference:
Link 1
Link 2
 
S

Shadow Hog

Member
I was using an XRGB-mini on a Insignia HDTV. It's pretty much all I have.

I don't have any CRTs. The ones I did have all maxed out rather low; took years to get a TV that had anything better than RF, but the CRT I was donated maxed out at composite. Then I got the living room TV that maxed out at S-Video. I've never owned a CRT that got up to even component. Even if I did, I no longer have room for one of a decent enough size for couch gaming.
 
S

Soulhouf

Member
HaL64 said:
Are you sure you are looking at RGB on a good quality display?
The differences are huge on my Sony PVM.
I have a Sony Trinitron TV where the differences aren't as big, but still worth it. However, that was using an RGB->component converter.

I can post some pics of my setup, but this shows enough of the difference:
Link 1
Link 2
Click to expand...

With the SNES the difference is noticeable but my PS1 picture quality didn't show much improvement using RGB vs S-Video either on my SONY Trinitron or XRGB Mini on a SANYO Full HD video projector. The 2 cables are the official SONY ones.
Especially on the projector I had to use another cable to get the sound out of the RGB on top of the mini converter which made it more hassle than anything and thus not worth it TBH.
I felt I wasted my money on the mini converter and the audio output...
 
baphomet

baphomet

Member
RGB has been a noticeable improvement on everything I've tried. Especially on the SNES. Maybe it's because I use a CRT, but I can still see issues with the picture using svideo that aren't present with RGB.
 
S

Sixfortyfive

He who pursues two rabbits gets two rabbits.
Anyone know of a decent place to pick up an RGB modded Nintendo 64? Preferably a US console with S-video capability also preserved, compatibility with official JP Super Famicom RGB cables, and a cartridge slot adjusted to accommodate games from all regions. I'm flexible on most of those details, though. Power cable, video cable, and RAM/jumper pack not necessary.

Also, can anybody recommend good universal game cases for NES/SNES/N64 that fit carts and manuals at the very least? These look pretty appealing, but they don't fit NES carts. I've decided that hunting down complete copies of games isn't worth the trouble anymore unless they already come in clamshell (early Genesis), jewel, or DVD cases.
 
IrishNinja

IrishNinja

Member
Sixfortyfive said:
Anyone know of a decent place to pick up an RGB modded Nintendo 64? Preferably a US console with S-video capability also preserved, compatibility with official JP Super Famicom RGB cables, and a cartridge slot adjusted to accommodate games from all regions. I'm flexible on most of those details, though. Power cable, video cable, and RAM/jumper pack not necessary.
Click to expand...

bapho's your man! he has pics in the B/S/T thread, yeah

Also, can anybody recommend good universal game cases for NES/SNES/N64 that fit carts and manuals at the very least? These look pretty appealing, but they don't fit NES carts. I've decided that hunting down complete copies of games isn't worth the trouble anymore unless they already come in clamshell (early Genesis), jewel, or DVD cases.
Click to expand...

those are the ones i use, and yeah, i took a dremel to a few dozen to make them fit NES carts - there's a good YT video on it, its fairly quick. I like how the art fits them, got most of it from The Cover Project...but yeah i don't go for CIB for that scene either, especially since i sold my SNES manuals years ago. since im just getting into Saturn now though, ive totally gone after CIB for those.
 
baphomet

baphomet

Member
Yea i should have some more rgb n64's within the next 2-3 days at most. Ill probably have at least 3. All of those things you mentioned are doable as well. Watch the bst thread or just hit me up via pm and we can talk.
 
X

Xtyle

Member
Got a question
I have seen videos of people using sync strike in combination with the Mini for PS2. Though I understand the green signal thing...I am still confused if it means all PS2 using RGB (or component?) needs the ST. Is it something I have to set up as well? My PS2 is NTSC and I will be using RGB scart.
 
M

Mikhal

Member
Sixfortyfive said:
Also, can anybody recommend good universal game cases for NES/SNES/N64 that fit carts and manuals at the very least? These look pretty appealing, but they don't fit NES carts. I've decided that hunting down complete copies of games isn't worth the trouble anymore unless they already come in clamshell (early Genesis), jewel, or DVD cases.
Click to expand...

Expensive, but these can be used for NES games. Not sure if there's any other alternatives besides modding the UGCs.

http://www.stoneagegamer.com/nintendo/nes/nes-game-cases/
 
B

Beckx

Member
Argh. Jealous of the folks posting NESRGB screenshots. Mine will hopefully be done and home to me soon. Like some gaffers advised, I'm having it (and the famicom converter) modded for expansion audio at the same time.
 
IrishNinja

IrishNinja

Member
when i was looking around lat year for a modder to do NES RGB (back when expensive playchoice 10 PPU was the only option), one german dude came up a few places as particularly noteworthy...we exchanged a few emails, ill see if i can dig up his contact & let you know, PM me to remind me though!
 
A

antibolo

Banned
Does anyone have any recommendations for a cheap RGB to component converter?

I have recently bought an Elgato Game Capture HD and would like to capture some classic gaming, and while it does capture composite and s-video just fine, I want an RGB capture for optimal picture quality, but since it does not directly support RGB I'll need something inbetween.

Of course an XRGB Mini would be the best possible solution, but since it would be used only for capture (I already own a PVM) I am not willing to spend that much dough just for that purpose.

I'm currently looking at this:
http://pages.ebay.com/link/?nav=item.view&id=221156873851
Anyone already tried this thing? Is it any good?
 
S

Sixfortyfive

He who pursues two rabbits gets two rabbits.
antibolo said:
Does anyone have any recommendations for a cheap RGB to component converter?

I have recently bought an Elgato Game Capture HD and would like to capture some classic gaming, and while it does capture composite and s-video just fine, I want an RGB capture for optimal picture quality, but since it does not directly support RGB I'll need something inbetween.

Of course an XRGB Mini would be the best possible solution, but since it would be used only for capture (I already own a PVM) I am not willing to spend that much dough just for that purpose.

I'm currently looking at this:
http://pages.ebay.com/link/?nav=item.view&id=221156873851
Anyone already tried this thing? Is it any good?
Click to expand...
Even if you find a good quality method for converting RGB to component, you'd have to ensure that your capture device will accept the input resolution. If your source is 240p/15khz and if the converter doesn't upscale for you, that may be problematic.

The XCAPTURE-1 is in a league of its own when it comes to retro game capture, and it does a good job of 1080p60 capture as well, but it's certainly not on the cheap side.
 
A

antibolo

Banned
Sixfortyfive said:
Even if you find a good quality method for converting RGB to component, you'd have to ensure that your capture device will accept the input resolution. If your source is 240p/15khz and if the converter doesn't upscale for you, that may be problematic.

The XCAPTURE-1 is in a league of its own when it comes to retro game capture, and it does a good job of 1080p60 capture as well, but it's certainly not on the cheap side.
Click to expand...

The Elgato Game Capture HD works just fine at capturing any resolution, including 240p. It is widely used by many people for capturing retro consoles, despite the "HD" in the name it is also a complete solution for SD capture.
 
S

Sixfortyfive

He who pursues two rabbits gets two rabbits.
antibolo said:
The Elgato Game Capture HD works just fine at capturing any resolution, including 240p. It is widely used by many people for capturing retro consoles, despite the "HD" in the name it is also a complete solution for SD capture.
Click to expand...
That is nice. I just looked it up.

I'd feel confident in buying a component converter, then.
 
G

Gunsmithx

Member
antibolo said:
Does anyone have any recommendations for a cheap RGB to component converter?

I have recently bought an Elgato Game Capture HD and would like to capture some classic gaming, and while it does capture composite and s-video just fine, I want an RGB capture for optimal picture quality, but since it does not directly support RGB I'll need something inbetween.

Of course an XRGB Mini would be the best possible solution, but since it would be used only for capture (I already own a PVM) I am not willing to spend that much dough just for that purpose.

I'm currently looking at this:
http://pages.ebay.com/link/?nav=item.view&id=221156873851
Anyone already tried this thing? Is it any good?
Click to expand...

I got one of those a week ago and so far it's been working fine, I've used it with my saturn, rgb n64 and snes with my crt and everything looks great so far. I also had to get a cheap audio extractor as well since it only does video. So far so good.
 
A

antibolo

Banned
Gunsmithx said:
I got one of those a week ago and so far it's been working fine, I've used it with my saturn, rgb n64 and snes with my crt and everything looks great so far. I also had to get a cheap audio extractor as well since it only does video. So far so good.
Click to expand...

Cool, that's the kind of feedback I was looking for, thanks.

The lack of audio does not bother me, as my SCART switch already has RCA audio outputs.

I'm thinking about buying a second 4xBNC to SCART cable so I can plug the converter into the passthrough outputs of my PVM, that way I can still play on my PVM while capturing with the Elgato capture box simultaneously. Basically the connected chain would be something like this:
Code: 
consoles --> SCART switch --> PVM --> component converter --> capture box

All those costs add up though, not sure I'll follow this plan through.
 
baphomet

baphomet

Member
Is anyone familiar with capturing video from an rgb to component converter? Im to the point where im going to begin capturing footage for my show, and im just wondering if anyone has done this. Original plan was to run it through an xrgb, which will eventually happen, but for now i want to get some experience with editing and such. Am i still going to be capturing 240p over component? Any hints will be helpful. Its going to be captured via el gato hd.
 
S

Sixfortyfive

He who pursues two rabbits gets two rabbits.
Just picked up an XRGB3 for $250. Still would have preferred a cheaper and simpler linedoubler, but I'm tired of waiting on Craftymech to finish his and $250 for a fully featured upscaler just happens to be low enough to push me over the edge.
 
B

Beckx

Member
Played a lot of Super Mario World (SNES via RGB to Framemeister) and Super Smash Bros Melee (Wii via Component to Framemeister) over the last few weeks, and noticed something weird going on with the scanlines. It seems like I'm getting a few scanlines (let's say 8 for ease of explaining this), then none below that (or maybe they're too light), then 8 again, then none, etc., all the way down the screen. Does that make sense the way I'm explaining it?

Has anyone ever seen this behavior from the Framemeister before? I am using stock settings for the scanlines, picture mode (changing between picture/natural doesn't change anything), and 720p, output via HDMI.
 
baphomet

baphomet

Member
Sixfortyfive said:
Just picked up an XRGB3 for $250. Still would have preferred a cheaper and simpler linedoubler, but I'm tired of waiting on Craftymech to finish his and $250 for a fully featured upscaler just happens to be low enough to push me over the edge.
Click to expand...

Shit, whered you find it for that? I would buy one right this second for $250.

Edit: Wait, i always confuse the 3 and the mini. Either way $250 is a damn good deal. Whats this line doubler your speaking of?
 
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