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Upscalers, CRTs, PVMs & RGB: Retro gaming done right!

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S

Sixfortyfive

He who pursues two rabbits gets two rabbits.
baphomet said:
Shit, whered you find it for that? I would buy one right this second for $250.

Edit: Wait, i always confuse the 3 and the mini. Either way $250 is a damn good deal. Whats this line doubler your speaking of?
Click to expand...
http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.php?t=45877

No frills, no lag, 240p -> 480p VGA. Other than support for dual 240p/480i games that's all I'd need out of an upscaler anyway.

The N64 came in earlier today so I'll probably give that a run later tonight.
 
baphomet

baphomet

Member
Awesome, glad it showed up so quickly.

Im really just looking for the best way to capture 240p/480i/p content. Ive never done anything similar before so i just want to get the best possible quality that i can. Eventually ill run everything through a mini, but if something like a line doubler would give me a better image than what i have currently, i would be interested in that. I think its mostly going to be me messing with different stuff until i find a resulting capture im happy with.
 
S

Sixfortyfive

He who pursues two rabbits gets two rabbits.
baphomet said:
Awesome, glad it showed up so quickly.

Im really just looking for the best way to capture 240p/480i/p content. Ive never done anything similar before so i just want to get the best possible quality that i can. Eventually ill run everything through a mini, but if something like a line doubler would give me a better image than what i have currently, i would be interested in that. I think its mostly going to be me messing with different stuff until i find a resulting capture im happy with.
Click to expand...
You said you're using one of these, right? It says it supports 240p so I assume you just need a simple transcoder from RGB to component.

If you wanted better picture quality from something that isn't limited by USB 2.0, you'd want one of these:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B007U5MGBE/?tag=neogaf0e-20
http://www.solarisjapan.com/sc-512n1-l-dvi-component-hd-and-dvi-capture-board/
http://www.solarisjapan.com/xcapture-1-usb-3-0-hd-capture-unit/

The top one isn't quite as versatile (no 1080p60 support), but the price difference would be worth it if you only care about retro.

I can vouch for the XCAPTURE-1. Its color sampling (YUY2) isn't the best when compared to other HD capture devices out there, but I don't think there's anything on the market that can beat it at 240p capture.
 
S

Soulhouf

Member
baphomet said:
Shit, whered you find it for that? I would buy one right this second for $250.

Edit: Wait, i always confuse the 3 and the mini. Either way $250 is a damn good deal. Whats this line doubler your speaking of?
Click to expand...

I paid ~270$ for the Mini 3 months ago from amazon.co.jp
 
J

Jamix012

Member
Hopefully someone in the know will help out but I have a question. I bought an upscaler (DVDO VP50) which has a set of RGBHV connector. Is it possible to connect RGBS to this somehow?
 
S

Sixfortyfive

He who pursues two rabbits gets two rabbits.
The Sync Strike (SCART) and XSYNC-1 (JP 21-pin) are used to split composite sync into H+V sync, but I'm looking at the back of a VP50 on image search and don't know how you're supposed to hook either of those devices up to it.
 
J

Jamix012

Member
Sixfortyfive said:
The Sync Strike (SCART) and XSYNC-1 (JP 21-pin) are used to split composite sync into H+V sync, but I'm looking at the back of a VP50 on image search and don't know how you're supposed to hook either of those devices up to it.
Click to expand...

The BNC connectors are RGBHV. There are other upscalers/deinterlacers with similar set ups. http://www.ebay.com/itm/Female-RGB-...ideo_Game_Cables_Adapters&hash=item2ecdae5314
Would something like this work? Like I don't know if I could just plug in the S line into the H or V line and it would work. Probably not but I read a comment somewhere saying it would. Maybe GAF isn't the place to ask.
 
A

antibolo

Banned
baphomet said:
Awesome, glad it showed up so quickly.

Im really just looking for the best way to capture 240p/480i/p content. Ive never done anything similar before so i just want to get the best possible quality that i can. Eventually ill run everything through a mini, but if something like a line doubler would give me a better image than what i have currently, i would be interested in that. I think its mostly going to be me messing with different stuff until i find a resulting capture im happy with.
Click to expand...

Why are you asking the same thing I asked just a few posts back, instead of participating in the existing discussion?

Sorry if I sound like a jerk but it is mildly frustrating. I was already talking about this and you just rebooted my discussion only THREE posts down on the SAME thread page, talking about almost the same thing.

In any case, quick update from my side: I just ordered the RGB to component converter. I'll post some results on capture with my Elgato as soon as I get it (probably in two weeks or so).
 
S

Sixfortyfive

He who pursues two rabbits gets two rabbits.
RoninChaos said:
How do these upscalers work for stuff like ps2 and ps1 games?
Click to expand...
What are you looking for?

There can be minor differences between specific models when it comes to a number of factors. Varying input resolutions (240p/480i/480p) in particular are common for that era of games and could be something to consider; not all scalers handle interlaced content competently, and some are not a good fit for games that frequently switch resolution on the fly. Some are perfect just for getting 15khz sources to display on 31khz monitors/TVs but won't upscale all the way to 1080p or at least not do it very well. Some scalers lag a little more than others. The types of inputs/outputs vary, although that can be addressed with proper transcoders or converters.

Most people settle on a Micomsoft box of one kind or another, and this page is a pretty good breakdown for those. The main site has a lot of useful information on other processors as well.
 
S

Sixfortyfive

He who pursues two rabbits gets two rabbits.
Just out of the handful of games that I've personally tested:

Virtua Fighter 2 Saturn is 240p on character select and switches to 480i at the start of a match.
Saturn Bomberman wide mode switches to 480i at the start of every round.
Sonic 2 versus mode switches to 480i at the start of every stage.
 
S

Shadow Hog

Member
Doesn't Majora's Mask also do something like that when you approach the dawn of the Second and Third Days?

Also, man, that Micomsoft article is really making me desire an RGB NES (or, well, anything better than its crappy composite output). The boards are $90, but I dunno how much it'd cost for, say, baphomet or somebody else to do the mod (I haven't soldered since high school and barely remember any of it, so I doubt I'm able to mod it myself). Ideally, this'd use a standard Nintendo multi-out like the SNES/N64 (so I could use a standard SCART RGB and/or S-Video cable, depending on the TV), but I dunno if that requires me to buy a for-parts SNES or something.
 
A

antibolo

Banned
Shadow Hog said:
Also, man, that Micomsoft article is really making me desire an RGB NES (or, well, anything better than its crappy composite output). The boards are $90, but I dunno how much it'd cost for, say, baphomet or somebody else to do the mod (I haven't soldered since high school and barely remember any of it, so I doubt I'm able to mod it myself). Ideally, this'd use a standard Nintendo multi-out like the SNES/N64 (so I could use a standard SCART RGB and/or S-Video cable, depending on the TV), but I dunno if that requires me to buy a for-parts SNES or something.
Click to expand...

If you're insane like me you can always order one of these babies:
https://www.tindie.com/products/low_budget/nes-super-8-bit-video-game-system-complete/
 
B

Beckx

Member
Sixfortyfive said:
Sonic 2 versus mode switches to 480i at the start of every stage.
Click to expand...

God I hate this. I've never been able to get the stages to not look weird, either.

Shadow Hog said:
Doesn't Majora's Mask also do something like that when you approach the dawn of the Second and Third Days?

Also, man, that Micomsoft article is really making me desire an RGB NES (or, well, anything better than its crappy composite output). The boards are $90, but I dunno how much it'd cost for, say, baphomet or somebody else to do the mod (I haven't soldered since high school and barely remember any of it, so I doubt I'm able to mod it myself). Ideally, this'd use a standard Nintendo multi-out like the SNES/N64 (so I could use a standard SCART RGB and/or S-Video cable, depending on the TV), but I dunno if that requires me to buy a for-parts SNES or something.
Click to expand...

There are multiple ways to hook up the new viletim board. He ships with a mini-din connector and also sells a cable, but that also means your relying on a specific custom cable from that point on.

It's also possible to hook it up with a mini-din compatible with a Genesis 2 RGB cable. The guy modding mine was looking into doing that, but sourcing the necessary parts was going to take a long time, so I decided to have him use a SNES multi-out instead. He didn't have any of those on hand, so I had to source a for-parts box (and man was it nasty, ugh) and send him the multi-out.

So in short, talk to your modder about options and decide from there.
 
A

antibolo

Banned
sixteen-bit said:
I wonder what the breakdown is for that price.

Are they gutting Fami Titler or Playchoice 10 PPUs?
Click to expand...

NES CPU and Playchoice 10 PPU.

Everything else is hand-assembled off the shelf parts and a PCB designed by the guy.

Stuff like this can get expensive quick, it's not mass production.

Yeah it's not a cost effective purchase but I like the guy's efforts (it took him multiple years of work to reach 2.0) and so I wanted to encourage him.
 
J

Jamix012

Member
Guess I should share where I got my DVDO VP50.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/271357113648?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1497.l2649

It's listed as $369, but I offered $200 and it got accepted. Can't guarantee he'll accept another $200 offer as I feel I got pretty lucky with this. Doesn't come with a power supply but complete otherwise I think (haven't recieved mine just yet, will update again if peoplw want to know when I get it.)
http://retrogaming.hazard-city.de/ has a review on it, it looks like he deems it 2nd to xRGB for 480i, if that's your main concern (it is mine along with 576i.) I chose it over the xRGB for the multitude of inputs/outputs, the english language and the lower price.
 
baphomet

baphomet

Member
well apparently the elgato doesn't support 240p over component. that, or it's just not working for me. i've tried ps1 games on a ps2, and i've tried vc games set to output 240p on wii. black screen on both. my scart to component converter should be here tomorrow or thursday, and hopefully it will work. otherwise i wasted money on that when i could have just put it towards an xrgb.
 
A

antibolo

Banned
baphomet said:
well apparently the elgato doesn't support 240p over component. that, or it's just not working for me. i've tried ps1 games on a ps2, and i've tried vc games set to output 240p on wii. black screen on both. my scart to component converter should be here tomorrow or thursday, and hopefully it will work. otherwise i wasted money on that when i could have just put it towards an xrgb.
Click to expand...

Well, fuck. I just tried too and it didn't work either.

I blindly assumed that since it captures 240p fine over composite and s-video, the same would apply for component.

And the converter I bought has already shipped. Man, this is a real deal breaker for me as well.

Maybe this is something they can fix in software though. When the elgato launched it didn't even have composite and s-video support at all, it was added later and most of the marketing brochures don't even mention it.

EDIT: Confirmation from their support pages: http://help.elgato.com/customer/por...s-can-elgato-game-capture-hd-record-?b_id=360
 
S

Sixfortyfive

He who pursues two rabbits gets two rabbits.
antibolo said:
I blindly assumed that since it captures 240p fine over composite and s-video, the same would apply for component.
Click to expand...
240p60 over composite is usually interpreted as 480i30 by most devices, if I'm not mistaken.

I don't blame you for assuming it'd work since the spec sheet isn't that clear on what it accepts, though.
 
H

HaL64

Member
metsallica said:
I happen to be insane and want one; that's awesome! Wish you'd posted before I ordered my NESRGB board, but I'm honestly just as happy (if not happier, support fellow GAFFERS!) to give the work to bapho.
Click to expand...

Well you can get a modded RGB NES for less than that right?

NESRGB is better because you can switch between palettes. This thing is stuck with the PPU from the Playchoice 10.

Now if this only has the NESRGB board pre-installed it might be worth it.
 
P

Peagles

Member
Well my NESRGB board finally shipped! I'm back at work now though so might have to wait until my next break in March to put it in. I need to replace the cart connector pins thingy anyway so maybe I'll do that in the interim.
 
C

ColonelSkills

Member
What's the cheapest place to snag a Framemeister right now?

Solaris? Someone mentioned amazon.co.jp but it appears to be OOS, and I think there was someone in the B/S/T thread doing them for a good price? But I can't find anything on that so I might be misremembering.
 
M

metsallica

Member
HaL64 said:
Well you can get a modded RGB NES for less than that right?

NESRGB is better because you can switch between palettes. This thing is stuck with the PPU from the Playchoice 10.

Now if this only has the NESRGB board pre-installed it might be worth it.
Click to expand...
Wasn't aware, thanks for clarifying! I got excited because I've always wanted a top-loader and this seemed to be the best of everything.
 
R

Rich!

Member
CidHighwind89 said:
Quick question about cables. If I were to get an xRGB mini. What cable do I need for say a snes. Does it handle stereo sound as well?
Click to expand...

Are you in the UK/EU or not?

I ordered an RGB SCART cable for my Super Famicom (SNES) from ebay. Cost me £5. I then ordered a EURO scart to XRGB adapter for the same price online. Works brilliantly with my 5 switch scart adapter. If you're in the US, it might be a bit more pricey.

Even if you are in the US, going the EU/UK SCART route may well be cheaper.
 
C

CidHighwind89

Member
richisawesome said:
Are you in the UK/EU or not?

I ordered an RGB SCART cable for my Super Famicom (SNES) from ebay. Cost me £5. I then ordered a EURO scart to XRGB adapter for the same price online. Works brilliantly with my 5 switch scart adapter. If you're in the US, it might be a bit more pricey.

Even if you are in the US, going the EU/UK SCART route may well be cheaper.
Click to expand...

I am in the US so that complicates it.
 
B

Beckx

Member
CidHighwind89 said:
I am in the US so that complicates it.
Click to expand...

Most of what you need to know is here: retrorgb.com (yes, it handles the audio)

You can use either SCART or JP21 but you have to have a matching adapter for the mini. The mini ships with a JP21 to mini-din adapter which works with JP21 standard cables. Or if you want to use SCART cables, you can get a SCART to mini-din adapter.

retro_console_accessories on ebay and retrogamingcables.com are good sources for both.
 
meanspartan

meanspartan

Member
Noob Question:

So getting my old consoles to not look like shit on HDTVs is apparently very expensive.

I do however know that Retron 5 is coming out and connects via HDMI and has options that supposedly improve the image, all for $100.

Will the Retron 5's visual improvements be better or worse than the expensive options discussed on this thread?
 
C

CidHighwind89

Member
Beckx said:
Most of what you need to know is here: retrorgb.com (yes, it handles the audio)

You can use either SCART or JP21 but you have to have a matching adapter for the mini. The mini ships with a JP21 to mini-din adapter which works with JP21 standard cables. Or if you want to use SCART cables, you can get a SCART to mini-din adapter.

retro_console_accessories on ebay and retrogamingcables.com are good sources for both.
Click to expand...

Alright that makes more sense. After looking at cables on ebay I was a bit confused about scart vs JP-21 cables. Makes more sense now that you talk about what adapter the mini comes with.
 
S

Sixfortyfive

He who pursues two rabbits gets two rabbits.
meanspartan said:
Noob Question:

So getting my old consoles to not look like shit on HDTVs is apparently very expensive.

I do however know that Retron 5 is coming out and connects via HDMI and has options that supposedly improve the image, all for $100.

Will the Retron 5's visual improvements be better or worse than the expensive options discussed on this thread?
Click to expand...
It's an emulator box. Wait for impressions on the actual emulation before you throw down money for it.
 
B

Borman

Member
Ugh to go with the XCapture, or to buy a mini and put it into my Intensity Pro. On one hand, 1080p 60 and native 240p would be nice, but on the other, just playing with the mini would be an improvement.
 
V

Voliko

Member
Anything I can do about image noise with the framemeister? I've had one for a while now but everything seems to have some noise. It's not noticeable unless I am super close to the TV or there is a dark color on a decent part of the screen but it is pretty annoying. Maybe my brightness settings aren't right? I really don't know.
 
V

Voliko

Member
IrishNinja said:
wait, like this kinda image noise? i think ive seen a bit've that when nothing's on yet but never when things are started...how're your plugs?
Click to expand...
It's kind of like that. It's very similar in terms of the sporadic movement. It's kind of just this fuzzy, random movement. It's most noticeable on something like the FFVI title screen. Fudoh mentions it a bunch of times on his gigantic upscaling and processing page and apparently PS2 through the Mini over component shows a decent amount of noise in dark areas. He goes on to say that RGB from a PS2 is noise free but that isn't the case for me... I've tried two different HDMI cables with multiple consoles and TVs but it has always been there.
 
D

Dwayne

Member
My PC Engine RGB has noise, but i'm pretty sure it has to do with the third party PSU on the PC Engine. Anything dodgy or different in the power sources?
 
P

patrickthehedgehog

Member
I feel like this has been brought up 100 times in this thread so I'm sorry to ask again, but I'm helplessly confused.

I have US NTSC consoles. I'd like to use my SNES, Genesis, PSX and AES with a Framemeister. The port on the front is RGB. From what I understand the Framemeister comes with a SCART to RGB converter.

I thought I would just have to buy NTSC SCART cables since US/JP is both NTSC, but I see someone post about how they feel bad for Americans who don't have SCART. Is it that the NTSC SCART cables are hard to come by so it's easier to buy a different adapter to replace the one that comes with the Framemeister and use PAL SCART cables?

Is the adapter that comes with the Framemeister the jp21 to RGB while the replacement PAL converter is known as SCART to RGB?

Also, what's with the audio mods? Does the SCART to RGB converter drop the sound data?

I'm going to poke around retrorgb for a while, but if anyone can clear this up for me I'd be super thankful.

or, do I just buy this to hook up my NTSC SNES to the Framemeister and stop freaking out? Haha
 
V

Voliko

Member
patrickthehedgehog said:
I feel like this has been brought up 100 times in this thread so I'm sorry to ask again, but I'm helplessly confused.

I have US NTSC consoles. I'd like to use my SNES, Genesis, PSX and AES with a Framemeister. The port on the front is RGB. From what I understand the Framemeister comes with a SCART to RGB converter.

I thought I would just have to buy NTSC SCART cables since US/JP is both NTSC, but I see someone post about how they feel bad for Americans who don't have SCART. Is it that the NTSC SCART cables are hard to come by so it's easier to buy a different adapter to replace the one that comes with the Framemeister and use PAL SCART cables?

Is the adapter that comes with the Framemeister the J28 to RGB while the replacement PAL converter is known as SCART to RGB?

Also, what's with the audio mods? Does the SCART to RGB converter drop the sound data?

I'm going to poke around retrorgb for a while, but if anyone can clear this up for me I'd be super thankful.

or, do I just buy this to hook up my NTSC SNES to the Framemeister and stop freaking out? Haha
Click to expand...
I think you have it mostly down but I'll try to clear things up. Both J21 and SCART refer to the pin configuration on RGB adapters. Both of them are considered RGB. The port on the front of the Mini is not an RGB port but an 8 pin "mini-din" port. The thing that comes with the Framemesiter is for converting J21 pin RGB to the mini-din port. You really don't want to plug in SCART cables into that. For the audio, RGB cables carry audio along with the video. What you linked is a SCART RGB cable configured for NTSC, so you would also have to buy a mini-din to SCART RGB cable in order for it to work with the Framemeister. As you can see, NTSC SCART cables are pretty easy to come by actually. I hope this clears things up a bit. I was super confused at first.

Dwayne said:
My PC Engine RGB has noise, but i'm pretty sure it has to do with the third party PSU on the PC Engine. Anything dodgy or different in the power sources?
Click to expand...
All of my power cables are first party as far as I know. Do you mean the electrical outlets themselves by power sources though?
 
P

patrickthehedgehog

Member
Voliko said:
I think you have it mostly down but I'll try to clear things up. Both J21 and SCART refer to the pin configuration on RGB adapters. Both of them are considered RGB. The port on the front of the Mini is not an RGB port but an 8 pin "mini-din" port. The thing that comes with the Framemesiter is for converting J21 pin RGB to the mini-din port. You really don't want to plug in SCART cables into that. For the audio, RGB cables carry audio along with the video. What you linked is a SCART RGB cable configured for NTSC, so you would also have to buy a mini-din to SCART RGB cable in order for it to work with the Framemeister. As you can see, NTSC SCART cables are pretty easy to come by actually. I hope this clears things up a bit. I was super confused at first.
Click to expand...

Thank you! There seems to be some confusion on here as far as what types of cables people buy for this thing. The last thing I would want to do is fry my new $400 toy by plugging euroSCART cables into the j21 to 8 pin connector that comes with the Framemeister. I'm taking it that you can simply count the pins on the connectors to identify if it's euroSCART or j21?

It seems like people are even getting the euro cables from Japanese sellers that say the cables are for Super Famicoms, but I suppose they are saying that because they are compatible with them just as a j21 connector would be.
 
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