Canis lupus
Member
The last few titles aswel as the shift to more cinematic and action oriented games have damaged FFs status, so I don't think it will ever reach the sales of the old days.
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Can Final Fantasy / JRPGs ever reach the sales of the old days again? - A Discussion
- Thread starter Toth
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Relaxed Muscle
Member
Western RPG arrived to consoles, that's what happened. Most of the people that played with FF games are already grown ups that don't want to play games with plots targeted a 14 year olds, and sice those play COD and Halo games they aren't interested on JRPG.
Omnistalgic
Member
I think favorably...if released today, FF7 would be the equivalent of Gears or Uncharted at the start of the generation, absolutely stunning to look at, really set the benchmark for graphical fidelity. Also, those were really amazing games through and through, it's not so much that JRPG are being ignored, they're just aren't that many good ones anymore. Valkyria Chronicles for a while, was the only JRPG I had on my PS3, and it's not even traditional...Elder's Scroll, Mass Effect, Dragon Age, etc...still sell very well, and the Dark Souls is now a franchise. It's not so much JRPG are being ignored now, or job systems like FF8's functioning wouldn't be well-received. literally, FF has just been bad, and Dragon Quest, Tales Series, Ys, Legend of Heroes, just about EVERY other decent/good/great JRPG is on portables...
btw--Final Fantasy Type-0 sold over half a million units a week on sale in Japan...Sometimes titles do slip through the cracks, but for the most part, good games will sell...
Lady Bird
Matsuno's Goebbels
But FF hasn't been like it used to since FFXII. Not to mention, both FFXII and FFXIII had a lot of internal development problems, and then there's the FFXIII's director, that failed to even get back half the sales for the sequel, which shows how many people cared for his original game.
I really wonder if it's about change, or if it's about quality issues. From questionable direction visions to blatant incomplete products, it's only natural that the fanbase would distance itself.
But Tales of is mostly a console JRPG series here. Namco barely releases many of it's handheld entries over here. Got a GBA Phantasia and that one PSP crossover game and that's about it.
SatelliteOfLove
Member
Not until consoles stop being persona non grata to japanese players not defined by "kids" or "otaku".
Not until non-japanese players stop defining quality in RPG narratives via how Hollywood potboiler it is.
Not until non-japanese players stop defining quality in RPG narratives via how Hollywood potboiler it is.
7 would be recieved the same way. 8 would still be recieved the same way, the junction system would still be considered a hassle. IX would still be considered a fairy tale style closer to precious moments dolls/statues.
Combining the sales on both platforms FFXIII still performed quite well.
Nobody reads this op because it's long winded and doesn't get to the point at the point that it should that's not on the reader that's on you the writer.
The question is what is square doing to fix this?
Versus sounds great but is it even going to get here in time? This lightning returns thing, why? Lightning was never considered a great character and I when it comes to memorable characters she doesn't even rank. It's going to use the same battle system that we've endured from xiii to xiii-2 so great...the streamlined boring not even pretending anymore combat is still there. The story presentation is mired in playstation 1 times. The reason people still love FFVI to this day is because when we read the dialogue we make it the way we want to hear it in our mind whereas Square's delivery is quite poor belonging on kid shows.
Even disney learned to grow up. It's time Square learned too.
Meccanical
Member
The problem with that, is FFXII had a great dub, with great writing and voice direction.
FFXIII could have had a great dub too if the script wasn't thirteen kinds of ass, voice direction could not save that script from being ass.
Dr. Kitty Muffins
Member
The only thing keeping the genre down is mediocre games or well playing games with not alot of mass market appeal. JRPG's really suffer for the same reasons that anime is suffering right now - a niche mentality and less talent.
I couldn't tell you how many former gamers I've encountered who used to play JRPG's and asked "Whatever happened to those kind of games?" There is an untapped market out there of former JRPG gamers (now part of the general lapsed gamer collective) who don't even own consoles.
I couldn't tell you how many former gamers I've encountered who used to play JRPG's and asked "Whatever happened to those kind of games?" There is an untapped market out there of former JRPG gamers (now part of the general lapsed gamer collective) who don't even own consoles.
Risk Breaker
Member
Well, I hope so.
Just like in the late 90s shooters were huge, then lost some presence during the early 2000s, and came back with COD4 (and mainly X360, in general). I'm really tired of this genre saturation and of how shitty most JRPGs (and WRPGs) are lately. Thank you Toriyama!! This guy needs to be fired or quit (lol) before FF can go back to be what it was.
Just like in the late 90s shooters were huge, then lost some presence during the early 2000s, and came back with COD4 (and mainly X360, in general). I'm really tired of this genre saturation and of how shitty most JRPGs (and WRPGs) are lately. Thank you Toriyama!! This guy needs to be fired or quit (lol) before FF can go back to be what it was.
electroplankton
Banned
Have jRPGs ever been big in the West?
I don't think so.
Of course, Final Fantasy was selling better (which is a half truth, because XIII sold better than XII and IX in the West, for example), Kingdom Hearts was selling better (but it's not that you can trace a trend based on one or two series), but the others?
We don't have much numbers for the NA market in the 90s, but I remember some big releases didn't do hot as well; Chrono Trigger barely sold 200.000 units on SNES (on par with sales of the DS version... Not so many years ago) and Dragon Quest was never big outside Japan, and still IX could sell more than VIII worldwide (it sold more both considering Japan and the West).
I don't think so.
Of course, Final Fantasy was selling better (which is a half truth, because XIII sold better than XII and IX in the West, for example), Kingdom Hearts was selling better (but it's not that you can trace a trend based on one or two series), but the others?
We don't have much numbers for the NA market in the 90s, but I remember some big releases didn't do hot as well; Chrono Trigger barely sold 200.000 units on SNES (on par with sales of the DS version... Not so many years ago) and Dragon Quest was never big outside Japan, and still IX could sell more than VIII worldwide (it sold more both considering Japan and the West).
HoodWinked
Member
grin's game probably had the best chance until it was cancelled
Relaxed Muscle
Member
The problem is a more mature FF game, and I don't mean blood and guts, instead more interesting and mature themes and not teenagers as protagonist, not anime/manga tropes characters everywhere would sell like shit in japan.
SE must choose between western market or japanese market.
A Witcher 2 JRPG would sell like hotcakes in USA/Europe.
SE must choose between western market or japanese market.
A Witcher 2 JRPG would sell like hotcakes in USA/Europe.
SatelliteOfLove
Member
"They weren't bought. Then the people responsible for them quit or got stuck on projects of lesser quality." should be your responce.
Manmademan
Member
yup. XIII's sales weren't bad at all. It was critical and popular reception that was the problem. If it had been considered a GREAT game (on par with VI, VII, or X) we wouldn't be having this discussion.
well, the people who own ps3's and 360s aren't going anywhere- but at this point whenever it releases it's going to be overshadowed by the launch of next gen systems. the attention of the hardcore will be elsewhere. This is exactly what happened to IX and XII.
At this point it needs to be a PS4/720 game. launching a flagship game this late in the cycle makes no sense.
the reason "lighting returns" is happening is obvious. Square needs to be able to pump out games more frequently than it has been to generate revenue, and that means re-using assets and sequels to games no one is really that excited about. Get used to this being the status quo, rather than the exception from here on out.
The dub was great agreed, and to be fair the intrigue wasn't bad either but it seemed like the main character should have been dropped off along with his friends while the grown ups take the stage. Which is pretty much what happened story wise anyway for them.
Relaxed Muscle
Member
People talks about quality but there have been a good chunk of good JRPG this gen. Last Remnant, Resonance of Fate, Valkyria Chronicles, XIII-2, hell SO4 is a good RPG that have awful characters and plots but it has solid RPG mechanics.
No the problem lies elsewhere.
No the problem lies elsewhere.
Risk Breaker
Member
What they don't realize is that they won't generate any revenue when they kill the franchise in a couple more games.
Valkyria Chronicles is great, but it was SRPG more than anything. XIII-2 is mediocre and SO4 is crap. Haven't played the others. So yeah, the problem is there...
Manmademan
Member
absolutely not. These two are textbook examples of what NOT to do to keep the genre moving forward. "solid mechanics" can't make up for cringeworthy and incomprehensible plots and characters.
If JRPG devs want western players to actually buy these games over skyrim, the souls games, dishonored, fallout, etc they're going to need to do a hell of a lot better.
I agree with you- making sequels to a poorly received game is bad business. Unfortunately shareholders rarely think much farther beyond the next quarter, and that's who S/E answers to. Potentially "killing the franchise" is a distant second.
SuperSonic1305
Member
FF7 remake will lead the comeback of the JRPG.
Manmademan
Member
I'm not even sure this would help. The audience that was into the anime tropes that littered FF7 is gone- or at least so extremely niche it's not worth targeting.
would it sell like gangbusters? Probably-at the very least more than the 6 million or so copies that XIII sold.
But would it help the genre? probably not. It would draw in players that want to play FF7 all over again and relive their first rpg ever, but i doubt it would draw many "new" players in- and that's really what the genre needs. New ideas and new mechanics to draw new players, not rehashing the same games with a higher polygon count. Consider also that square has revisited the world of FF7 in advent children, dirge of cerebus, and crisis core (am i forgetting one? it feels like i am) and the results were terrible across the board. crisis core at least had decent gameplay but again- the characters and script were as bad or worse than what we've seen with FFXIII.
SatelliteOfLove
Member
They are not rewarded when they are.
What games are you referring to exactly when you say this?
Perfo
Thirteen flew over the cuckoo's nest
The situation is even more large than this... it's not just FF or jRPGs that risk to become irrelevant, it's the whole japanese gaming in the West that in few years could disappear completely. And doesn't have anything to do with quality or changed tastes. It has to do with western developers rising on an american console and little by little shipping out games more akin to western players' tastes. Tastes that always have been the same (our cultures are different afterall and that never changed), but once you had FF7 and only FF7 on consoles. Now you got more choice, and a Mass Effect, Dragon Age or Elder Scrolls are obviously closer to our culture than those games.
If FFVII was out today, nothing would change.
If FFVII was out today, nothing would change.
Manmademan
Member
Exodus beat me to it, But I've yet to see a JRPG even make the attempt at more mature content. They've been making the equivalent of terrible anime in game form for years, and are wondering why the west is losing interest.
The closest I can think of would be FFXII- but even that had unnecessary teenage protagonists thrown in at the last minute, and the plot was the weakest part about it.
I'm not sure i agree with this- there are plenty of games by japanese studios that are going in the right direction- they just aren't JRPGs. Fighters are at a high point, for instance...the only issue there is that the market is just flooded with them and needs a break. The castlevania reboot was a solid game, and the sequel looks incredibly interesting. Even capcom's attempt at a western style rpg (dragon's dogma) was a good attempt that sold decently for an original (if flawed) IP.
Thamauturge
Banned
EDIT: CAN A MOD PLEASE RESIZE THESE PICTURES FOR ME? I THOUGHT THAT THEY AUTOMATICALLY SCALED DOWN AND I DON'T KNOW HOW TO FIX THEM!
I really think that a big factor is the art design. In the JRPGs of previous gens, the characters were obviously Japanese, but they had an appeal to their designs that even westerners liked. For example:
Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that ANY of the above are at all bad games. I just think that the more extremely Japan designs of the games really turn off a lot of Westerners who think it looks weird.
I really think that a big factor is the art design. In the JRPGs of previous gens, the characters were obviously Japanese, but they had an appeal to their designs that even westerners liked. For example:
Where as now:
Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that ANY of the above are at all bad games. I just think that the more extremely Japan designs of the games really turn off a lot of Westerners who think it looks weird.
Risk Breaker
Member
Use quote tags. Put the pictures between
like that.
Karsticles
Member
Put your pictures in [ quote ] [ /quote ]
You're seeing a lot more output from companies like NIS and Gust lately because they don't put a huge emphasis on graphics with their anime style. As a result, both of these developers are putting out more console RPGs than the bigger guys - which, because more of those games are being made, they're seeing a lot more exposure as well. Not to mention NIS typically localizes nearly everything they put out, super niche or otherwise.
Go_Ly_Dow
Member
Just my own analysis on some games/pubs that release on HD consoles.
FF - needs a director that actually understands what fans value in the series (Itou) and no more Toriyama
Versus - needs to be big, needs to be amazing and needs a huge marketing push. If they've known for a while now that it will launch in to next gen, then it should really be on those consoles for maximum impact. They need to restore faith with this game
KH - I think a shiny new console KH would sell just fine next-gen, the HD remasters should help fix the platform mess
Star Ocean - needs reboot or a fresh lick of paint, one look at SO4 and you could tell it would only appeal to Japan
Tales - no issues, continue appealing to your home audience, achieve success and then bring it here
Yakuza - same as above
Level 5 - their console games always lack some key aspects, they either need a shake up in the creative areas or just give up on HD games since they're hardly successful it seems
Atlus - really should have had their own internal engine in place much sooner, apart from that they're doing fine and I feel P5 is close now. They're unique as their fanbase is so dedicated worldwide
Valkyria - they just fucked up, no fixing this now
Monolith - HD game will give them more appeal. They Nintendo to actually market their game this time and to actually release it in the same year worldwide.
Gust/Falcom/Niche stuff - same as usual
FF - needs a director that actually understands what fans value in the series (Itou) and no more Toriyama
Versus - needs to be big, needs to be amazing and needs a huge marketing push. If they've known for a while now that it will launch in to next gen, then it should really be on those consoles for maximum impact. They need to restore faith with this game
KH - I think a shiny new console KH would sell just fine next-gen, the HD remasters should help fix the platform mess
Star Ocean - needs reboot or a fresh lick of paint, one look at SO4 and you could tell it would only appeal to Japan
Tales - no issues, continue appealing to your home audience, achieve success and then bring it here
Yakuza - same as above
Level 5 - their console games always lack some key aspects, they either need a shake up in the creative areas or just give up on HD games since they're hardly successful it seems
Atlus - really should have had their own internal engine in place much sooner, apart from that they're doing fine and I feel P5 is close now. They're unique as their fanbase is so dedicated worldwide
Valkyria - they just fucked up, no fixing this now
Monolith - HD game will give them more appeal. They Nintendo to actually market their game this time and to actually release it in the same year worldwide.
Gust/Falcom/Niche stuff - same as usual
Manmademan
Member
disagree entirely here. The sales for the games you quoted are all over the place.
FFVIII sold around 8 million.
Persona 4 sold 400,000- and only 100,000 of that in North America.
The art from FFXII (which you posted twice) was FAR more western than the series as a whole, yet it's sales are among the worst of the mainline FF games. FFX which is VERY eastern/asian in flavor has nearly twice the sales.
The art from disgaea 4 (or is that 3?) isn't different from the first game at all- and the series as a whole is near 2 million copies sold- for a niche srpg.
FFXII sold more to consumers than XIII though.
Manmademan
Member
That's not high praise. XIII got absolutely savaged by gamers and the press alike. No one was happy with it, and it's not the art style that was responsible for that.
Thamauturge
Banned
This simply isn't true. FFXII sold 6 million copies; FFX did sell more, but FFXII is actually among the best selling ones, and arguably the most critically well received title along with FFVII and FFX (for some reason).
Stumpokapow
listen to the mad man
This is not remotely correct.
Manmademan
Member
It really isn't. ignore the SNES era FF's, because the market was completely different. RPG's were niche, and most didn't even make it over here- the genre wasn't "BIG" until post FF7.
Wiki gives FFXII selling about 5.2 million through it's first year.
FFVII and FFVII sold about the same amount during the PSX era. (I think FFVII got a boost of a couple million from it's PSN re-release on PS3.)
FFIX sold about 5.3 million copies, give or take- but launched well after the DC and PS2 hit the market- it was crushed by hype from superior systems.
FFX sold about 8 million copies, and it's spin off X-2 (which was plagued by terrible word of mouth and a bizarre "girl's night out" concept) sold about 5.2 million.
FFXIII sold* about 6 million copies, but as has been pointed out the sell through to consumers has not been good and there's a lot remaining on shelves.
So FFXII's performance puts it in the league of X-2, XIII, and IX- two badly reviewed games and one released on an outdated platform. It's not anywhere in the same league as the high points (VII, VIII, and X) which sold in the 8 million range without extenuating circumstances. If having a "western" art style had anything to do with sales, it would be at the top of the pile.
he's probably pulling that information from here:
The same thing happened to FFIX and will likely happen to Versus XIII.
SatelliteOfLove
Member
And I corrected both of you with my first two posts.
The best gameplay/mechanics in the world typically won't help you if your art design/writing are terrible. Likewise the best game in the world won't sell if people don't know it exist or have bad impressions of it.
While I think FF7 would do fine if it was released today. "Going back" isn't going to fix anything, because traditional gaming isn't the issue.
To be honest majority of Jgames this era have two astronomical problems: Development and Marketing. No I'm not talking about putting Space Marine Bros into every game, or working employees 75 hours a week.
Simply put no game should ever be shown unless it over half finished. Versus and The Last Guardian are excellent examples. SUPERHYPE games that have slowly crept into vaporware status due to some colossal management failure at the studio. You only burn out and disenfranchise the very audience you seek to build when you pull this crap. Take 5 years to make a game, just don't tell us about it until the last 2.
I don't know who does the marketing for Japanese publishers, but they need to outsource badly. Between the various titles sent to die in the NA/Euro markets with no support, others left on the sidelines with canceled localizations(Some already completed!), and even the loss of branding on product lines. The mistakes are numerous and compounding the issues.
While I think FF7 would do fine if it was released today. "Going back" isn't going to fix anything, because traditional gaming isn't the issue.
To be honest majority of Jgames this era have two astronomical problems: Development and Marketing. No I'm not talking about putting Space Marine Bros into every game, or working employees 75 hours a week.
Simply put no game should ever be shown unless it over half finished. Versus and The Last Guardian are excellent examples. SUPERHYPE games that have slowly crept into vaporware status due to some colossal management failure at the studio. You only burn out and disenfranchise the very audience you seek to build when you pull this crap. Take 5 years to make a game, just don't tell us about it until the last 2.
I don't know who does the marketing for Japanese publishers, but they need to outsource badly. Between the various titles sent to die in the NA/Euro markets with no support, others left on the sidelines with canceled localizations(Some already completed!), and even the loss of branding on product lines. The mistakes are numerous and compounding the issues.
Manmademan
Member
Almost certainly. In fact IX and XII have almost identical sales in similar circumstances, a generation apart- despite the art style of the two being radically different.
TheDarkKnight774
Member
Not sure. It'd have to be on consoles to have a chance and there are only a few studios left that even have the finances for that.
Manmademan
Member
Indulge me, because I see no such correction. Which JRPGs were made by japanese developers to appeal to the west, and were not rewarded with decent sales?
The only one I'm aware of without "souls" in the title is Dragon's Dogma, and that one was over a million copies as of june. Not bad at all for an original IP with some fairly serious flaws.
ULTROS!
People seem to like me because I am polite and I am rarely late. I like to eat ice cream and I really enjoy a nice pair of slacks.
It could probably do it if they meet these 3 conditions:
1. Big budget with great graphics
2. Superb story and gameplay, leading to a cult/big following with high praises
3. Big marketing
Mix it all and you'll get a blockbuster. If you leave one out, you'll get a niche classic, a huge flop, or an overhyped and undelivered product that will most likely have no future (big sales initially but it'll go way downhill).
Case example:
Final Fantasy VII - 1, 2, and 3 = Blockbuster
Persona series - 2 = Niche classic
Final Fantasy XIII - 1, 3 = An overhyped and undelivered product that has no future
Shenmue (not an RPG but it's the closest example) - 1, 2 = a huge flop
1. Big budget with great graphics
2. Superb story and gameplay, leading to a cult/big following with high praises
3. Big marketing
Mix it all and you'll get a blockbuster. If you leave one out, you'll get a niche classic, a huge flop, or an overhyped and undelivered product that will most likely have no future (big sales initially but it'll go way downhill).
Case example:
Final Fantasy VII - 1, 2, and 3 = Blockbuster
Persona series - 2 = Niche classic
Final Fantasy XIII - 1, 3 = An overhyped and undelivered product that has no future
Shenmue (not an RPG but it's the closest example) - 1, 2 = a huge flop