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GametimeUK
Member
Are people really debating that the remake retains the originals artstyle here?
Maybe my characterisation is wrong here, but one looks medieval and one looks gothic. They give off entirely different vibes to me. We can agree to disagree on what looks better, but if you're saying these are the same artstyle you're flat out wrong.
Maybe my characterisation is wrong here, but one looks medieval and one looks gothic. They give off entirely different vibes to me. We can agree to disagree on what looks better, but if you're saying these are the same artstyle you're flat out wrong.
R6Rider
Gold Member
The old design had no character at all.Are people really debating that the remake retains the originals artstyle here?
Maybe my characterisation is wrong here, but one looks medieval and one looks gothic. They give off entirely different vibes to me. We can agree to disagree on what looks better, but if you're saying these are the same artstyle you're flat out wrong.
The old "art style" amounts to a generic medieval wall.
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Soodanim
Member
I agree that the circlejerk is strong, but I don't disagree that all of the points are strictly laziness oriented.
At this point dropping their massive amount of copy pasting might have people turn on them. People know they can return to the bonfire to refresh the character and world, etc. The copy pastes from other projects into the next is something I like, personally. Bringing over some stuff from Sekiro to ER gave us a chance to use fun abilities in a different game.
Leaving gaps gets the imagination going, which works for the community aspect they encourage (messages etc). Whether it was on purpose or by accident they found a way to keep communities engaged.
The problem with the cryptic lore is that they've leant too hard into it as time has gone on and so you've got Elden Ring with flat out unfinished lore. You're supposed to be able to finish puzzles or at least fill in the gaps, and that isn't something you can do with some critical/important stuff ER.
Cutscenes and animations... personally I don't give a shit. We get the ones we get for important parts and the rest of the game is pure gameplay. I think that alone resonated with people, especially with forced walking happening before and after Souls existing.
But what does the new design do any better? Tacked on a couple bits and added some fire, but to what end?
The original game had a bleakness to it that carried through the visuals and soundtrack and created a certain atmosphere. The remake, while fantastic looking, seems to go in a different direction.
R6Rider
Gold Member
It shows something happened/is happening there. It's making the player ask why was it on fire, what's up there, etc. and can even link itself to the dragon's around.
The are banners hung from the wall as well, which is a nice touch.
Most importantly the castle/wall has a unique design and feel to it, begging the player to explore it.
tylrdiablos
Member
That reminds me, has anyone checked in on Jim Sterling recently?
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Sleepwalker
Member
Wow the original looks like shit and performs even worse.
Radical_3d
Member
You have to be Mediterranean to be this based.
GametimeUK
Member
Which one has more character or not is irrelevant to the point I'm making. I'm just saying there's a clear difference in artstyle between the original and remake.
Sleepwalker
Member
I will never understand these people. You think this looks
You people hide behind terms like "Art Direction" and "Art Style" while completely ignoring how Demon Souls looked like a PS2 game when it came out literally a month after KZ2 and same year as uncharted 2. Literally incomplete assets and textures. One of the ugliest games i had the displeasure of playing.
This is whats most funny to me, "the original is so oppressive and filled with so much dread, even scary at times, the art direction is incredible"
but this right here looks like C tier trash FMV from the PS1 era.
CitizenKratos
Member
“Demon's Souls Remake is an artistic masterpiece “
Fixed.
bender
What time is it?
And the new one is a generic gothic motif.
Soodanim
Member
I don't see much in the remake screenshot, personally. I think there's something to be said for a quiet but foreboding structure that doesn't give anything away.
Portugeezer
Member
It is amazing except the hollowed look (whatever it's called). Most of the game my character had a shiny outline, I hate it.
Yeah, how they butchered these 32x32 textures and 100 polygons face, it's criminalThey also did same thing with Shadow of the Colossus.
I'm just not fan of Bluepoint's arstyle at all.
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R6Rider
Gold Member
It's barely "gothic" in design at all.
bender
What time is it?
R6Rider
Gold Member
That structure isn't even part of the main wall that was being discussed.
The inspiration for the architectural redesigns are obvious.
"Gothic architecture is a European architectural style that's known for its pointed arches, flying buttresses, stained glass, and ornate decoration"
It has a few pointed sections on the main towers of the wall above the gate. That separate building is more gothic, but again, the majority of the wall's design is not.
bender
What time is it?
How disingenuous can you possibly be? The wall isn't the crux of the discussion, but if you want to make it that way, look at what was added to the wall over the original and what overall architectural style Bluepoint is aping.
R6Rider
Gold Member
The wall is the focus of the shot, the focus of the entire start of the game is the wall. It's even on the box art. That's why I'm focusing on the wall. You're pointing out a cropped building on the side that has maybe two elements of gothic architecture in it and somehow applying that to the entire design they were going for.
Talk about being disingenuous.
The original art style was bland and generic and had no character. It looked like they dropped in a stock castle asset. It's funny how so many people are claim the new game lacks atmosphere or the feel of the original when it actually is adding something in this case where there was basically none to be found.
Yes, it looks different. It actually is memorable in comparison.
bender
What time is it?
Apologies, disingenuous was giving you way too much credit.
R6Rider
Gold Member
Stick to Futurama memes, you're better off.
simpatico
Member
Lost any and all respect for decision makers at Bluepoint after this. They either did not understand the material, or thought their ideas were better than From's. Worst way to do a remake. Honestly can't think of one more offensive.
In a vacuum it's a fine game. Uses From's amazing gameplay loop and level design. The technical team did a fantastic job. The art team, like the subjective art and the decisions they made, those guys should be black balled from the industry. It's no wonder we don't have a Bloodborne remake. You think DS fans are mad? Image the people who made it. Yeah I know they said mildly nice things in public about it. It's called having tact.
In a vacuum it's a fine game. Uses From's amazing gameplay loop and level design. The technical team did a fantastic job. The art team, like the subjective art and the decisions they made, those guys should be black balled from the industry. It's no wonder we don't have a Bloodborne remake. You think DS fans are mad? Image the people who made it. Yeah I know they said mildly nice things in public about it. It's called having tact.
bender
What time is it?
For future communications with you, noted as it's something you can actually understand without the need for you to run off to Wikipedia.
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ZehDon
Member
Yeah, they butchered Shadow of the Colossus on PS4.They also did same thing with Shadow of the Colossus.
I'm just not fan of Bluepoint's arstyle at all.
In that game, Bluepoint's art style is the typical western AAA "go for maximum realism" approach, with little in the way of actual style. Sony's studios are the biggest offender of this, often just sticking in a bunch of hero lighting and high contrast colours and calling it a day. Playing the original Ico and Shadow of the Colossus on the PS2, it's very clear their visuals had a definitive presentation that, while realistic to a degree, was clearly stylised. The lighting and shadows in particular were extremely presentational, as opposed to purely "realistic" or even "cinematic". I haven't played the Demon's Souls remake, but I can't imagine they've changed their approach given they were praised for their work on Shadow, despite them completely missing the mark.
digdug2
Member
It feels like many people don't realize that most medieval castles had different wooden fixtures and roofs built on top of the ruined structures that are still standing today.Are people really debating that the remake retains the originals artstyle here?
Maybe my characterisation is wrong here, but one looks medieval and one looks gothic. They give off entirely different vibes to me. We can agree to disagree on what looks better, but if you're saying these are the same artstyle you're flat out wrong.
R6Rider
Gold Member
It feels like many people don't realize that most medieval castles had different wooden fixtures and roofs built on top of the ruined structures that are still standing today.
The fact that this guy talks about races in the game then shows a black man in the game who was also in the original tells me everything I need to know. That plus his choice opening reaction video. Guys out there trying to rile up a certain group.
Oh no. They didn't need to use low polygon count blocks to depict a castle on a PS3 anymore, whatever should we do! Game is entirely ruined!Are people really debating that the remake retains the originals artstyle here?
Maybe my characterisation is wrong here, but one looks medieval and one looks gothic. They give off entirely different vibes to me. We can agree to disagree on what looks better, but if you're saying these are the same artstyle you're flat out wrong.
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GametimeUK
Member
Boletaria on PS3 doesn't though.
digdug2
Member
Sony gave BluePoint creative liberties, and it's very apparent that they didn't want Boletaria to look like it was destroyed centuries prior, considering Old King Allant was the reason why everything went to shit.
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DeepEnigma
Gold Member
If only Miyazaki could read this thread he would love all these salty tearsHoly shit
GametimeUK
Member
If they "needed" to depict a castle that way because of the PS3's technical limitations then could you please explain how they have more complex structures in both Dark Souls 1 and 2?
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Such as? Besides DeS was an early PS3 game so was graphically less impressive than later games of that gen.
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DeepEnigma
Gold Member
They got better with their tools and hardware.
We aren’t talking about the most technically adept dev houses when it comes to their engine and performance.
The Dark Souls lighting downgrade from reveal to launch shows it’s more about their proficiency in hardware than “done on purpose for artsy stuff.”
Great designers though.
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digdug2
Member
It's crazy how everything from Demon's Souls still applies to their game design. I love their games to death, but they really need to get with the times regarding their engines and how badly they perform. They have some of the best designers in the business, though!
tomato shrub
Member
I have no attachment to the original because I didn't play it back in the day, but I can certainly see why some people were irritated by the changes. Personally I think some of the art looks better and some has lost his atmosphere but overall the graphics are good. However, without a doubt the soundtrack is a huge downgrade and absolute shame.
However I will say that the new lock-on makes up for a lot, similar to the Shadow of the Colossus remake, where the art was also a mixed bag - but improved gameplay still make its my go-to-version, even though I always appreciate the original art unlike philistines who only appreciate the new and shiny
However I will say that the new lock-on makes up for a lot, similar to the Shadow of the Colossus remake, where the art was also a mixed bag - but improved gameplay still make its my go-to-version, even though I always appreciate the original art unlike philistines who only appreciate the new and shiny
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GametimeUK
Member
Well there's two things here.
1. Are you saying that Fromsoft only chose that artstyle for Demon's Souls because they couldn't achieve anything more complex? From a studio that has done medieval style games in the past (where it's more likely that was the design choice due to technical limitations). I think even From during 2009 could throw a triangle on top of a building.
2. Even if they chose this medieval style due to technical limitations the end result and the art style is the end result. A lot of stuff is added due to technical limitations, but whatever the reason it can become integral to a games identity.
DeepEnigma
Gold Member
Hopefully they use the Elden Ring money to invest in better tech/engine. Now that Sony will be working with Kadokawa to publish their games, maybe they can lend them Bluepoint’s engine or even Decima.
A Decima powered From Software game,
I know y’all drooling over that. On both sides of the fence, don’t play.
fallingdove
Member
Agreed. The argument is overblown.
The other thing is that in many cases people are equating artistic style with the limitations of an inexperienced development team. If FromSoft were to have made Demons Souls today with the team they have, I guarantee it would have looked closer to the Bluepoint game than what we got with the PS3 version.
GametimeUK
Member
Fromsoft was creating environments more complex than just "a blocky castle" within the same game. I mean I'm not saying it's a magnificent technical achievement by any stretch of the imagination, but to say they couldn't do better than Boletaria in Demon's Souls is just false as they have an area in the same game with more complexity.
I don't see anything complex there. The original DeS looks to have a higher polycount than what you posted here, especially the landscape. The backdrop is a 2D image too.
Fromsoft was creating environments more complex than just "a blocky castle" within the same game. I mean I'm not saying it's a magnificent technical achievement by any stretch of the imagination, but to say they couldn't do better than Boletaria in Demon's Souls is just false as they have an area in the same game with more complexity.
The creator of demons souls said it was a rough game and he's happy about the remake
“It was an old game, so to see it get remade in this way and have new players playing it was obviously something that made me very happy," Miyzaki said. “It was a rough game back in the day, with a relatively rough development, so I was anxious that new players would not enjoy it in that same way. That was a cause of concern for me when it was re-released but, you know, in the end, I’m just happy to see the reaction and happy to see people enjoying it."
But people have got to complain somehow. Nevermind that it's a palace and not a castle and I see nothing luxurious or palace-like in the original. At least it looks somewhat grander in the remake.
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GametimeUK
Member
It's worlds apart from "just a blocky castle" though in it's visual design which apparently is the only artstyle they could achieve on PS3 due to technical limitations.
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bender
What time is it?
Every game has limitations due to combination of developer/art team skillset, engine being used and hardware being targeted. DeSo was designed around those limitations and we can chicken or egg the conversation to death but we do know that From has traditionally overcome lack of technical prowess with a strong art direction. We'll never know, but even if you are right about it ending up more like Bluepoint's gothic inspired art if given more modern hardware, those design decisions that were made effected other aspects of the game. Swapping out the art can lead to mismatches with those aspects which is what some people have a problem with. I don't think most people that have a problem with Bluepoint's shift in direction think what they presented is bad necessarily (save for their weakness in human character modeling), but rather those artistic shifts that present those mismatches.
Mibu no ookami
Demoted Member® Pro™
People like to ignore that concept and artbooks exists for Demon's Souls and they probably aimed to closer capture the original concepts than what was in the game.
S0ULZB0URNE
Member
Worse art or not...
PS5 Pro version=graphic king.
PS5 Pro version=graphic king.
But the screenshots polygon budget seems lower than the Boletarian Palace scene on PS3 so I don't get what you're saying. Most of the polygon budget seems to have been spent on the dead bodies because that was more important for the scene in the screenshot.
Mibu no ookami
Demoted Member® Pro™
Further comparisons that showcase how much better the details and atmosphere are in the Remake:
Taken from this video:
The last one is a real kicker. Looks 10x more hopeless and mysterious.
This is evidence that you can find people who would complain about literally anything...
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