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[MonkeyDKenshin]

Cano just happened to be the first person I thought of... I mean given the debates going around I can't imagine MVP going to anyone but miggy or trout lol

also please tell me you weren't implying I was a yankee's fan with "A Yankee's fan happy?"

He also happened to be the 2nd most valuable player in the AL this season behind Trout, so I wouldn't say he's exactly random.

Hamilton was worth 4.7 fWAR... that's about 3 full games fewer than Miggy or Cano and 5.5 fewer than Trout. Absolutely overrated season. Just comparing to Cano, he provided a bit less offensive value and significantly less defensive. The fact that he's even in the MVP discussion is a testament to how old fashioned the voters are.

 

[Corran Horn]

Didn't I make that avatar?

Maybe. I thought I did but maybe I just don't remember anymore.

 

[Windu]

I know siamesedreamer had a rays one at some point.

 

[Sanjuro]

Cano and Cabrera are too close in fWAR to mean anything. Cabrera leads in batting and Cano's numbers are propped up by defense and UZR has never liked him before this season. I'd go with Cabrera on this one.

I honestly didn't watch the red sox enough to really judge him, but just from that instance alone I know I would be complaining about him if he were managing the braves lol.

I complained about Francona more. Our entire pitching staff didn't have a single bright spot other than Tazawa. I mean, nobody. No matter what move he made it never seem worth it. Towards the end, he just kept guys in there.

 

[Mr. Enigma]

Matt Kemp confirmed he's been playing with a torn labrum in his left shoulder ever since that game in Colorado on August 28. He's having surgery on Friday.

 

[Malo]

The Council always rolls deep. Conversely, the Brotherhood has lost strength over the years, I'm afraid.

There's a seat for you here. Join the darkside.

 

[MonkeyDKenshin]

Cano and Cabrera are too close in fWAR to mean anything. Cabrera leads in batting and Cano's numbers are propped up by defense and UZR has never liked him before this season. I'd go with Cabrera on this one.

I honestly didn't watch the red sox enough to really judge him, but just from that instance alone I know I would be complaining about him if he were managing the braves lol.

UZR's opinion on Cano's defense had been inconsistent with every other advanced defensive statistic until this year. The fact that it suddenly liked him was more it finally matching up with the popular consensus than random blip. Cabrera on the other hand is certifiably awful on defense, both to the eye and stats, so there really isn't a debate on that side.

Again Cabrera should have won in 2010 and was the best among post-season players in 2011 so I'm fine with him finally winning, but after Cano's blistering hot streak down the stretch I'd say he was almost certainly more valuable as a complete player.

Trout was better than both though, and it wasn't even close.

 

[Sanjuro]

I fucking hate Nick Swisher. Hate his face. Hate his voice. Hate.

 

[hemtae]

There's a seat for you here. Join the darkside.

I see what you did there.

 

[vas_a_morir]

There's a seat for you here. Join the darkside.

Besides, I'm already a fan of Kentucky Basketball. I don't need any more bad Karma coming my way.

 

[MonkeyDKenshin]

I fucking hate Nick Swisher. Hate his face. Hate his voice. Hate.

I love the guy, but I certainly understand. I'd hate him with a passion if he were a Red Sock. He has more fun than anyone and is constantly endearing himself to fans. I guess I'd just see that as showboating if he was on any other team.

 

[AndresON777]

lol so Texas is in the wild card game?

wow

 

[Windu]

UZR's opinion on Cano's defense had been inconsistent with every other advanced defensive statistic until this year. The fact that it suddenly liked him was more it finally matching up with the popular consensus than random blip. Cabrera on the other hand is certifiably awful on defense, both to the eye and stats, so there really isn't a debate on that side.

Again Cabrera should have won in 2010 and was the best among post-season players in 2011 so I'm fine with him finally winning, but after Cano's blistering hot streak down the stretch I'd say he was almost certainly more valuable as a complete player.

Trout was better than both though, and it wasn't even close.

yeah DRS has liked Cano the past few seasons so it could be a case of it matching up. Tango over on The Book blog calculated that Cabrera has a net 16 runs over Cano because of the offensive lead. I'm not sure Cano's defense is that good to make up that much of a difference. And yes, Trout is the superior player this season. (we have been over it in the previous thread to great acclaim..)

 

[ZeroRay]

Congrats to Miggy on the TC.

Who did we trade him for again? -_-

 

[zulux21]

Cabrera on the other hand is certifiably awful on defense, both to the eye and stats, so there really isn't a debate on that side.

I watched over 20 tigers games this year and I really can't agree with to the eye him being awful on defense. Was he going to win any gold gloves absolutely not but he seemed to have a an average glove, an average throwing arm his only real flaw seemed to be range, which even then he covered more ground than I expected but was still below average.

of course to me certifiably awful on defense would be stuff like Wilson Betemit playing 3rd base for the white sox... (a .500 fielding percent over 43 innings) or Mark Teahen in 2010 at 3rd base for the white sox (.919 fielding over 411 innings)

I mean miggy on had 13 errors all season at 3rd base (a .966 fielding) and I know errors don't mean everything, but in general he did a decent job at third (granted below average but I would hardly call it awful), especially since most people had him pegged for 25 plus errors at third this year.

 

[zulux21]

Congrats to Miggy on the TC.

Who did we trade him for again? -_-

if by we you mean florida
Dallas Trahern , Burke Badenhop, Eulogio De La Cruz, Cameron Maybin, Andrew Miller and Mike Rabelo.

you also managed to dump Dontrelle Willis in the trade, and there is no way in hell he would have stayed on florida anyways given florida's refusal to give players money before this year lol

opps... didn't mean to double post though I hit edit ><;

 

[Sanjuro]

I really didn't see enough of Miguel playing third base this season, but what are you going to do? Seems like he was not worse than the average.

 

[Windu]

the players that the marlins have left from the Cabrera to the tigers, and then trading away what they received (maybin etc..) is:

Jake Jefferies http://www.baseball-reference.com/minors/player.cgi?id=jeffer001jac
Zack Cox http://www.baseball-reference.com/minors/player.cgi?id=cox---001zac
and Ryan Webb http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/w/webbry01.shtml

 

[MonkeyDKenshin]

yeah DRS has liked Cano the past few seasons so it could be a case of it matching up. Tango over on The Book blog calculated that Cabrera has a net 16 runs over Cano because of the offensive lead. I'm not sure Cano's defense is that good to make up that much of a difference. And yes, Trout is the superior player this season. (we have been over it in the previous thread to great acclaim..)

First off, I'd like to say I am ecstatic to be having an intelligent, advanced stats based baseball discussion. Normally when I mention WAR I get a response like "Ur srsly uzing WAR? How kan u argu with something usin a replaysment playr that dusnt exist?1". Knowing about DRS is a massive bonus.

Really it's very close between them, you can give the edge to whoever you wish. Is Inside the Book updated as of last night? It obviously wouldn't close a 16 run gap but Cano's 4-4, 2 HR, 1 BB showing could narrow it, making the defensive bonus a bit more relevant.

 

[ZeroRay]

if by we you mean florida
Dallas Trahern , Burke Badenhop, Eulogio De La Cruz, Cameron Maybin, Andrew Miller and Mike Rabelo.

you also managed to dump Dontrelle Willis in the trade, and there is no way in hell he would have stayed on florida anyways given florida's refusal to give players money before this year lol

opps... didn't mean to double post though I hit edit ><;

Look at all those flops, especially Maybin and Miller as the centerpieces. Well, Badenhop was good from time to time, but the rest...

Eovaldi better not end up being another Miller or I'll burn down the front office.

 

[Windu]

Cabrera ranks among the worst in DRS/UZR at 3B. (of course only 1 year sample, need about 3 years to be good). And yeah his range seemed to be the big issue, seems like he has good hands.

First off, I'd like to say I am ecstatic to be having an intelligent, advanced stats based baseball discussion. Normally when I mention WAR I get a response like "Ur srsly uzing WAR? How kan u argu with something usin a replaysment playr that dusnt exist?1". Knowing about DRS is a massive bonus.

Really it's very close between them, you can give the edge to whoever you wish. Is Inside the Book updated as of last night? It obviously wouldn't close a 16 run gap but Cano's 4-4, 2 HR, 1 BB showing could narrow it, making the defensive bonus a bit more relevant.

he posted that just a few hours ago so I assume its up to date.

 

[MonkeyDKenshin]

I really didn't see enough of Miguel playing third base this season, but what are you going to do? Seems like he was not worse than the average.

-9.2 UZR, 28th among regular third basemen in the MLB. I'm pretty sure that qualifies as worse than average .

 

[turnbuckle]

4

Rest who the hell cares. baseball champions every year, Triple crown once in 47 years.

.

But the last day of last season is #1 of all time.

 

[MonkeyDKenshin]

he posted that just a few hours ago so I assume its up to date.

Okay, I didn't open it I just took what you said as the truth hahaha. I don't know, I think it's close, but if I were totally objective I'd give Cabrera MVP over Robbie simply because he's arguably been robbed twice in a row already, Robbie hasn't. Subjectively, I pick Cano every time, but that's largely biased. Judging their seasons in a vacuum, I'd say they were almost dead equal; one edges out the other based on how highly you value defensive superiority.

 

[Sanjuro]

-9.2 UZR, 28th among regular third basemen in the MLB. I'm pretty sure that qualifies as worse than average .

Well there you go. Like I said, only saw him play a handful of games.

 

[Windu]

breaking down UZR for Cabrera (-9.2)

Range Runs -14.7
Error Runs 4.4
Double Play Runs 1.1

so basically if Cabrera gets to the ball, he will make the play. He just doesn't get to the as much ball compared to other third basemen.

&#9679; Double-Play Runs (DPR) &#8211; The amount of runs above average an infielder is in turning double-plays.
&#9679; Range Runs (RngR) &#8211; Is the player an Ozzie Smith or an Adam Dunn? Do they get to more balls than average or not?
&#9679; Error Runs (ErrR) &#8211; Does the player commit more or fewer errors compared with a league-average player at their position?

http://www.fangraphs.com/library/index.php/defense/uzr/

still a one year sample, but paints a pretty good picture. something that I think we can all agree with.

Okay, I didn't open it I just took what you said as the truth hahaha. I don't know, I think it's close, but if I were totally objective I'd give Cabrera MVP over Robbie simply because he's arguably been robbed twice in a row already, Robbie hasn't. Subjectively, I pick Cano every time, but that's largely biased. Judging their seasons in a vacuum, I'd say they were almost dead equal; one edges out the other based on how highly you value defensive superiority.

yeah its too close to call. I just always side with the offensive numbers if its this close since they are more reliable.

 

[zulux21]

Cabrera ranks among the worst in DRS/UZR at 3B. (of course only 1 year sample, need about 3 years to be good). And yeah his range seemed to be the big issue, seems like he has good hands.

to be fair his range has also been hurt do to the fact that he has been playing third with hurt ankles. I figured the advanced stats would show him not being very good, but to the eye he really didn't look horrible.

out of curiosity who were the worst at DRS/UZR?

breaking down UZR for Cabrera (-9.2)

Range Runs -14.7
Error Runs 4.4
Double Play Runs 1.1

so basically if Cabrera gets to the ball, he will make the play. He just doesn't get to the as much ball compared to other third basemen.

&#9679; Double-Play Runs (DPR) &#8211; The amount of runs above average an infielder is in turning double-plays.
&#9679; Range Runs (RngR) &#8211; Is the player an Ozzie Smith or an Adam Dunn? Do they get to more balls than average or not?
&#9679; Error Runs (ErrR) &#8211; Does the player commit more or fewer errors compared with a league-average player at their position?

http://www.fangraphs.com/library/index.php/defense/uzr/

still a one year sample, but paints a pretty good picture. something that I think we can all agree with.

hehe seems my to the eye wasn't really off didn't realize that his range was that horrible though. He sure as hell didn't miss many balls when the white sox were playing against the tigers

 

[MonkeyDKenshin]

Well there you go. Like I said, only saw him play a handful of games.

Yeah I understand, and to be fair it wasn't so much what you saw him do, but what you didn't see him do. He has reasonably good hands, it's just he doesn't get to a lot of balls that a Major League 3B should get every time. It's totally fine considering he's the best pure hitter in baseball, he more than covers it, but it's certainly a rare bad mark on his otherwise excellent season.

 

[cashman]

Al Wildcard

Rangers over O's

ALDS

Rangers over yankees
Who gives a shit over who gives a shit

ALCS

Rangers over who gives a shit

NL Wildcard

Who gives a shit over who gives a shit


NLDS
Who gives a shit over who gives a shit
Who gives a shit over who gives a shit

NLCS
Who gives a shit over who gives a shit
Who gives a shit over who gives a shit

World Series

Rangers over who gives a shit

 

[MonkeyDKenshin]

to be fair his range has also been hurt do to the fact that he has been playing third with hurt ankles. I figured the advanced stats would show him not being very good, but to the eye he really didn't look horrible.

out of curiosity who were the worst at DRS/UZR?

Among 3B or all of the MLB?

http://www.fangraphs.com/leaders.aspx?pos=all&stats=fld&lg=all&qual=y&type=1&season=2012&month=0&season1=2012&ind=0&team=0&rost=0&age=0&filter=&players=0

Play with that as you wish.

EDIT: Just kidding Windu beat me to it haha

 

[Malo]

First off, I'd like to say I am ecstatic to be having an intelligent, advanced stats based baseball discussion. Normally when I mention WAR I get a response like "Ur srsly uzing WAR? How kan u argu with something usin a replaysment playr that dusnt exist?1". Knowing about DRS is a massive bonus.

Really it's very close between them, you can give the edge to whoever you wish. Is Inside the Book updated as of last night? It obviously wouldn't close a 16 run gap but Cano's 4-4, 2 HR, 1 BB showing could narrow it, making the defensive bonus a bit more relevant.

I like you.

 

[MonkeyDKenshin]

breaking down UZR for Cabrera (-9.2)

Range Runs -14.7
Error Runs 4.4
Double Play Runs 1.1

so basically if Cabrera gets to the ball, he will make the play. He just doesn't get to the as much ball compared to other third basemen.

&#9679; Double-Play Runs (DPR) – The amount of runs above average an infielder is in turning double-plays.
&#9679; Range Runs (RngR) – Is the player an Ozzie Smith or an Adam Dunn? Do they get to more balls than average or not?
&#9679; Error Runs (ErrR) – Does the player commit more or fewer errors compared with a league-average player at their position?

http://www.fangraphs.com/library/index.php/defense/uzr/

still a one year sample, but paints a pretty good picture. something that I think we can all agree with.

yeah its too close to call. I just always side with the offensive numbers if its this close since they are more reliable.

Dude you're quickly becoming my favorite NeoGaf poster. You really don't understand how amazing it is to find someone this well-versed in sabermetrics on the internet hahaha.

 

[Sanjuro]

I feel like the 3rd base position itself has become more finesse over the years as well. I seem to remember when I was a kid you had similar range over at the bag.

 

[Mr. Enigma]

Congrats to Miggy on the TC.

Who did we trade him for again? -_-

December 4, 2007: The Florida Marlins traded Miguel Cabrera and Dontrelle Willis to the Detroit Tigers in exchange for Burke Badenhop, Eulogio De La Cruz, Cameron Maybin, Andrew Miller, Mike Rabello, and Dallas Trahern

Maybin and Miller were supposed to be the big pieces in that deal.

 

[zulux21]

Among 3B or all of the MLB?

http://www.fangraphs.com/leaders.aspx?pos=all&stats=fld&lg=all&qual=y&type=1&season=2012&month=0&season1=2012&ind=0&team=0&rost=0&age=0&filter=&players=0

Play with that as you wish.

EDIT: Just kidding Windu beat me to it haha

either way thanks to you both
not surprised to see Mike Moustakas at the top for 3rd basemen though, he sucked up everything when I was watching him lol.
hehe Derek Jeter with a -15 UZR

 

[MonkeyDKenshin]

I like you.

http://www.beersteak.com/breaking-news/japanese-english-illustrated-language-learner-book/

Sorry immediately what I thought of.

And I you.

 

[Windu]

Dude you're quickly becoming my favorite NeoGaf poster. You really don't understand how amazing it is to find someone this well-versed in sabermetrics on the internet hahaha.

there are other nerds in this thread as well. sharp is one of the biggest nerds. loser, lol.

 

[Malo]

either way thanks to you both
not surprised to see Mike Moustakas at the top for 3rd basemen though, he sucked up everything when I was watching him lol.
hehe Derek Jeter with a -15 UZR

That's five timee...five time gold glove winning Mr. Jeter to you.

http://www.beersteak.com/breaking-news/japanese-english-illustrated-language-learner-book/

Sorry immediately what I thought of.

And I you.

I will not let you fuck my sister.

Spoiler

Maybe sometime in the future

 

[The Frankman]

There's too much talking about sabermetrics on this page. Therefore, I shall post one of the grittiest players of all time.

 

[evil solrac v3.0]

And I'm sure Tigers fans will remember fondly the year they were unceremoniously bounced out of the playoffs after barely winning a shitty division with a $130 million payroll in which an asshole drunk had a good season at the plate.

geez, you can be so salty sometimes.

I still want Bobby back. Fuck the Pink-Hats.

pink hats? I feel like I should know what that is...

I know siamesedreamer had a rays one at some point.

whatever did happen to siamese?

I love the guy, but I certainly understand. I'd hate him with a passion if he were a Red Sock. He has more fun than anyone and is constantly endearing himself to fans. I guess I'd just see that as showboating if he was on any other team.

yeah... but he's a dudebro.

First off, I'd like to say I am ecstatic to be having an intelligent, advanced stats based baseball discussion. Normally when I mention WAR I get a response like "Ur srsly uzing WAR? How kan u argu with something usin a replaysment playr that dusnt exist?1". Knowing about DRS is a massive bonus.

Really it's very close between them, you can give the edge to whoever you wish. Is Inside the Book updated as of last night? It obviously wouldn't close a 16 run gap but Cano's 4-4, 2 HR, 1 BB showing could narrow it, making the defensive bonus a bit more relevant.

I don't know who you are but i'm naming you our official Yankee council statistician. you can have your own office. and get an avatar for god's sake, you're a company man now.

 

[MonkeyDKenshin]

That's five timee...five time gold glove winning Mr. Jeter to you.


I will not let you fuck my sister.

Spoiler

Maybe sometime in the future

Well shit.

And yeah... Of Jeter's Gold Gloves maybe one is legitimate. 2009 was a bizarre blip year where pretty much every defensive stat liked him. The other 4 I'm calling a BS, and I love DJ as much as anyone. Doesn't really matter, his offensive production, even at 38 is so remarkably better than pretty much everyone else at the position that it becomes irrelevant long before you've finished counting hits and what not.

 

[Dominican Power]

There's a seat for you here. Join the darkside.

Am I part of the council now?

 

[Madtown_]

I'd like to see a lot of orange in the world series this year.
Rooting for the O's, A's, and Giants.

Want to see some clutch pitching performances

 

[zulux21]

That's five timee...five time gold glove winning Mr. Jeter to you.

Jeter UZR by Gold glove year
2010 -4.7 (It really should have been Alexei Ramirez that year)
2009 6.4
2006 -7.3 (-8.7 range)
2005 -14.9 (-18.8 range)
2004 -.7

*scratches head*
if a -9.8 UZR makes cabrera "certifiably awful" how did Jeter win a GG in 2005? the yankee effect?

 

[evil solrac v3.0]

Am I part of the council now?

yes, you're a young up and coming... something.

 

[Windu]

There's too much talking about sabermetrics on this page. Therefore, I shall post one of the grittiest players of all time.

dude not even close

David Eckstein is the king.

whatever did happen to siamese?

banned a few years ago during the great braves purge.

 

[Sanjuro]

There's too much talking about sabermetrics on this page. Therefore, I shall post one of the grittiest players of all time.

He feasted on Clemens.

 

[Sanjuro]

Jeter UZR by Gold glove year
2010 -4.7 (It really should have been Alexei Ramirez that year)
2009 6.4
2006 -7.3 (-8.7 range)
2005 -14.9 (-18.8 range)
2004 -.7

*scratches head*
if a -9.8 UZR makes cabrera "certifiably awful" how did Jeter win a GG in 2005? the yankee effect?

They give you a GG when you mail in the UPC code from herpes medication.

 

[Malo]

Well shit.

And yeah... Of Jeter's Gold Gloves maybe one is legitimate. 2009 was a bizarre blip year where pretty much every defensive stat liked him. The other 4 I'm calling a BS, and I love DJ as much as anyone. Doesn't really matter, his offensive production, even at 38 is so remarkably better than pretty much everyone else at the position that it becomes irrelevant long before you've finished counting hits and what not.

2009 was such a great year. Dude put up a 7 war season at 35.

Am I part of the council now?

Of course

Jeter UZR by Gold glove year
2010 -4.7 (It really should have been Alexei Ramirez that year)
2009 6.4
2006 -7.3 (-8.7 range)
2005 -14.9 (-18.8 range)
2004 -.7

*scratches head*
if a -9.8 UZR makes cabrera "certifiably awful" how did Jeter win a GG in 2005? the yankee effect?

And dumb writers.

 

[Mr. Enigma]

Michael Bourn became the second player in MLB history to strike out over 150 times and hit less than 10 home runs. The only other to do it was Austin Jackson in 2010.