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[titiklabingapat]

100k Europe? Thats insanely low.

UK alone probably buys 75K Wiis a week.

 

[First Children]

Any data for New York Times Crosswords for DS ?

 

[KeithFranklin]

It's a talking point because you're repeating MS' E3 conference. It's a BS talking point because you know full damn well that a game doesn't have to rank in the top 20 to sell well, especially when the lists you give end at 100k. Sales add up over time and can be far more important than first month sales. Besides, we still get data beyond the Top 10 or 20 (Top 30, Top 20 minus handhelds, Top 10 per platform, game specific totals or LTD, publisher's annual reports and press release). To come in here and base your argument on such a myopic point is beneath you.

And what are you basing it on? Wishful thinking. You have no concrete numbers yet claim after claim that X is selling well. Do we have any real estimates we can point to? The only thing I can remember was one maybe two months that we could figure out that Tiger Woods 07 sold better on the Wii. That doesnt mean it sold well it just sold better than other platforms.

 

[AdventureRacing]

:lol This whole argument about 3rd parties selling on wii is ridiculous. To people really believe that consumers know which games are 3rd party and which ones are 1st party? Hell i don't even know half of the time. I realize that most hardcore gamers on these boards are detached from reality but seriously think about what your saying.

If people want to argue that nintendo make it difficult for 3rd parties to sell for whatever reason than that's ok. However suggesting that people just don't buy a game on a nintendo console simply because it is a 3rd party game is total crap.

 

[titiklabingapat]

One could argue that the reason third party games allegedly don't sell on Nintendo platforms doesn't matter; only that they don't sell.

 

[Son of Godzilla]

I just like how everyone points to REWii as a good example. Third parties simply have to release one of the best games ever to get some sales!

 

[cw_sasuke]

I just like how everyone points to REWii as a good example. Third parties simply have to release one of the best games ever to get some sales!

ok, red steel sold also 1mil...so what ?

 

[AdventureRacing]

One could argue that the reason third party games allegedly don't sell on Nintendo platforms doesn't matter; only that they don't sell.

I think if someone made that argument the key word would be 'allegedly'.

 

[jett]

NPD threads aren't the same without software numbers....in fact they pretty much suck without them. :| Following sales of my favorite games was what I liked to do...meh.

Eh, continue with the console wars gentlemen.

 

[Goldrusher]

Don't forget Sony still pushes the PS2 very hard...so combining PS2 & PS3 sales:

Hardware Unit Sales
Nintendo 403.6K
Sony 332.6K
Microsoft 276.7K

 

[Lobster]

I just like how everyone points to REWii as a good example. Third parties simply have to release one of the best games ever to get some sales!

Ok. Sonic and the Secret Rings definitely sold over 300k since it charted for a while in the PAL charts and I think once in the US.

Rayman sold a million.

Red Steel a million.

Tiger Woods 07 400k+ In US alone.

Dragon Quest Swords 500k+ in Japan alone.

Dragon Ball Z 200k +

Cooking Mama 100k+ for a budget title.

Third parties that put effort or advertise are getting great sales on Wii.

 

[Gallagher]

Christmas will be a hard time for Nintendo. ^^

 

[OneFiftyOne]

...blah blah blah...

Yeah, yeah, yeah, we KNOW that shitty third party games don't sell well on the Wii. They don't sell well on the PS3 or 360, either.

 

[Phoenix Down]

Don't forget Sony still pushes the PS2 very hard...so combining PS2 & PS3 sales:

Hardware Unit Sales
Nintendo 403.6K
Sony 332.6K
Microsoft 276.7K

and if you ADD total Hardware sales Sony has 483k total sales! wahoo! Sony wins! .......

 

[Kildace]

and if you ADD total Hardware sales Sony has 483k total sales! wahoo! Sony wins! .......

Only if you don't add DS sales to the Nintendo total.

 

[Phoenix Down]

:-(

 

[Son of Godzilla]

Third parties that put effort or advertise are getting great sales on Wii.

I don't think there's strong enough evidence to say that. Pretty much the only thing you can say is that some stuff sells, at least somewhat.

Wii isn't even a year old, I doubt you can make any meaningful predictions at all about it, especially something as specific as the overall necessities for third parties to reach sales goals.

:-(

Dude, don't forget to count television sales for Sony.

 

[titiklabingapat]

I just like how everyone points to REWii as a good example. Third parties simply have to release one of the best games ever to get some sales!

Ain't that a surprise, huh?

 

[titiklabingapat]

I don't think there's strong enough evidence to say that. Pretty much the only thing you can say is that some stuff sells, at least somewhat.

Wii isn't even a year old, I doubt you can make any meaningful predictions at all about it, especially something as specific as the overall necessities for third parties to reach sales goals.


Dude, don't forget to count television sales for Sony.

Tiger Woods Wii 07 was heavilly advertised and did better than Tiger Woods Wii 08, which had no marketing pressence at all.

 

[Son of Godzilla]

Ain't that a surprise, huh?

It's obvious where you are going with that, but the shrinking tie-in ratio kinda kills that argument.

Wasn't 07 a launch title? Or at the least, launch window. Again, I don't think theres enough to say one way or the other.

 

[Phoenix Down]

Dude, don't forget to count television sales for Sony.

 

[Maxwell House]

PS3 is probably selling 400k too.

PS3 is more likely selling 110 - 140k per month in Europe.

 

[titiklabingapat]

It's obvious where you are going with that, but the shrinking tie-in ratio kinda kills that argument.

Joshua already answered this plus we have no proof of this tie-ratio stuff. Rhindle never produced any sources

 

[egocrata]

Tiger Woods Wii 07 was heavilly advertised and did better than Tiger Woods Wii 08, which had no marketing pressence at all.

Who the hell that a golf roster update that come 2 months after the previous version is going to do well? Seriously, I just got TW 07 for the Wii last month. I would be stupid if I was getting a vaguely tweaked version at full price now.

 

[ethelred]

Tiger Woods Wii 07 was heavilly advertised and did better than Tiger Woods Wii 08, which had no marketing pressence at all.

Well, if EA killed the marketing for the second game, it's probably because the first underperformed considerably compared to what they expected when they launched its ad campaign.

Joshua already answered this plus we have no proof of this tie-ratio stuff. Rhindle never produced any sources

Rhindle's sources are solid.

 

[Son of Godzilla]

Rhindle never produced any sources

Self-evident imo.

 

[titiklabingapat]

Well, if EA killed the marketing for the second game, it's probably because the first underperformed considerably compared to what they expected when they launched its ad campaign.



Rhindle's sources are solid.

That's beside the point. The primary reason 07 sold at all was because of the marketing.

 

[ethelred]

That's beside the point. The primary reason 07 sold at all was because of the marketing.

But it didn't sell well -- not well enough to match EA's expectations, anyway, or they would've continued to push subsequent versions of the title.

 

[titiklabingapat]

Self-evident imo.

Third party sales aside, The Wiis tie ratio is meaningless.

Wii software and it's pressence in the top 20 in the past months, including August, is undisputable. It's not like were talking about the PSP here.

 

[titiklabingapat]

But it didn't sell well -- not well enough to match EA's expectations, anyway, or they would've continued to push subsequent versions of the title.

And 08 sold relatively worse because there was zero marketing. Whether or not 07 met EA's expectation is irrelevant to the discussion of how marketing can affect Wii third party software sales.

 

[ksamedi]

Where do all these numbers for Tiger come from? We all know 07 did well but nobody can guess how much it sold. As for Tiger 08, we dont even know how much the 360 version sold let alone the Wii version, it could be one spot below the 360 version and that would be a succes because of the user base difference. In the UK the Wii version sold better even when the 360 still has a higher userbase (although that might change in a few months).

 

[Metalmurphy]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, we KNOW that shitty third party games don't sell well on the Wii. They don't sell well on the PS3 or 360, either.

#1 - 360 MADDEN NFL 08 896.6K
#2 - PS2 MADDEN NFL 08 643.6K
#4 -PS3 MADDEN NFL 08 336.2K
#11 - XBX MADDEN NFL 08
#12 - WII MADDEN NFL 08

PS3 is more likely selling 110 - 140k per month in Europe.

Joke post?

 

[ethelred]

And 08 sold relatively worse because there was zero marketing. Whether or not 07 met EA's expectation is irrelevant to the discussion of how marketing can affect Wii third party software sales.

That was the discussion being held? Maybe it's good that I've been mostly ignoring this thread, then -- I didn't realize we had descended so low that it was worth discussing such banal points as "Marketing Good? Yes/no" as if they were open questions.

Um, yeah, marketing helps software sell, whether it's a Wii game or a third party game or anything else you care to name. That is... not exactly a controversial point. Advertising promotes sales! Welcome to Econ 101! But if you want to have a rehash of utterly mundane facts about commerce, sure, carry on.

It sure sounded, though, like you were tossing out the "wasn't advertised" canard as a means of trying to spin away poor Wii software sales, and that would be quite another different discussion entirely. You can't justify away every poor performance as "Well, they're just not advertising, darnit." If software isn't selling, it isn't selling -- period. Companies have tons of games across multiple platforms and they're going to most heavily promote the ones they think have the best chance at performance. If they're not doing that for their Wii games, that alone is a significant enough point about the reality of the situation.

 

[Evlar]

That was the discussion being held? Maybe it's good that I've been mostly ignoring this thread, then -- I didn't realize we had descended so low that it was worth discussing such banal points as "Marketing Good? Yes/no" as if they were open questions.

Um, yeah, marketing helps software sell, whether it's a Wii game or a third party game or anything else you care to name. That is... not exactly a controversial point. Advertising promotes sales! Welcome to Econ 101! But if you want to have a rehash of utterly mundane facts about commerce, sure, carry on.

It sure sounded, though, like you were tossing out the "wasn't advertised" canard as a means of trying to spin away poor Wii software sales, and that would be quite another different discussion entirely. You can't justify away every poor performance as "Well, they're just not advertising, darnit." If software isn't selling, it isn't selling -- period. Companies have tons of games across multiple platforms and they're going to most heavily promote the ones they think have the best chance at performance. If they're not doing that for their Wii games, that alone is a significant enough point about the reality of the situation.

You likewise cannot justify away every poor performance as "Well, third parties just can't sell on the Wii, darnit." That's not an explanation, that's a description. And an inaccurate one.

 

[ksamedi]

That was the discussion being held? Maybe it's good that I've been mostly ignoring this thread, then -- I didn't realize we had descended so low that it was worth discussing such banal points as "Marketing Good? Yes/no" as if they were open questions.

Um, yeah, marketing helps software sell, whether it's a Wii game or a third party game or anything else you care to name. That is... not exactly a controversial point. Advertising promotes sales! Welcome to Econ 101! But if you want to have a rehash of utterly mundane facts about commerce, sure, carry on.

It sure sounded, though, like you were tossing out the "wasn't advertised" canard as a means of trying to spin away poor Wii software sales, and that would be quite another different discussion entirely. You can't justify away every poor performance as "Well, they're just not advertising, darnit." If software isn't selling, it isn't selling -- period. Companies have tons of games across multiple platforms and they're going to most heavily promote the ones they think have the best chance at performance. If they're not doing that for their Wii games, that alone is a significant enough point about the reality of the situation.

I think in Tigers case they didn't have much to advertise because it was the same game as 07 and without online making it the worst of the bunch. Now that they have a years time for the next version, i think they can improve the game heavily and actually make it there main priority.

 

[HocusPocus]

EA is the one fucked right here, now that the Wii userbase is ignoring their cash cow. Madden's sales has minimal bearing on the Wii's. EA can probably axe Madden Wii next year and the Wii will probably still be number 1(or two, next to the DS).

They sell 4M+ Madden in the PS2 era at it's peak. They'd be lucky to break 3M on the 360/PS3 combined, at thier peak.

It's not like EA will stop maiing Madden Wiis. They had a GC version until the very end.

When Nintendo gamers start buying 3rd party games as much or even more than 1st, then EA will take notice. Competing for Nintendo gamer dollars against Mario, Pokemon, Zelda, Super Smash, etc. = not fun. Especially since Nintendo gamers are generally splitting their gaming dollar between a handheld and their home console.

 

[Sho_Nuff82]

And 08 sold relatively worse because there was zero marketing. Whether or not 07 met EA's expectation is irrelevant to the discussion of how marketing can affect Wii third party software sales.

So you're saying that Madden sold better on 360/PS3/PS2/Xbox because of marketing?

Harry Potter bombed on every console in the US, and it was heavily marketed (and scored decently, and released alongside a hit movie).

There are Tiger Woods 08 commercials...there just aren't Wii-specific Tiger Woods commercials. They play on ESPN all the time.

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=UX53IIHBAfo
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=G_4lluuzhO4

EA is the one fucked right here, now that the Wii userbase is ignoring their cash cow. Madden's sales has minimal bearing on the Wii's. EA can probably axe Madden Wii next year and the Wii will probably still be number 1(or two, next to the DS).

They sell 4M+ Madden in the PS2 era at it's peak. They'd be lucky to break 3M on the 360/PS3 combined, at their peak.

It's not like EA will stop making Madden Wiis. They had a GC version until the very end.

See, this mentality I don't understand. Madden is a big franchise that sells no matter what console it's put on usually right? Why is it a good thing that the Wii can potentially hurt EA's bottom line by being the market leader? Oh yeah, and Madden sold over 5.5 million copies last year across all platforms - it was the best-selling game in North America. It's the most important multi-platform franchise in North America, because we almost universally enjoy football.

Spoiler

And it will probably come close, as the Madden games tend to sell well all the way through January.

Madden Wii has a unique control scheme that takes advantage of the Wiimote, it's the only next-gen version with full color commentary, it has tons of exclusive minigames and the telestrator, it's 60FPS, it's one of a handful of online Wii titles worldwide, and let's face it, it's one of the better looking efforts on the console period, 3rd party or otherwise.

What do you think EA should do to make the Wii version sell the millions that the PS2 version sold last generation? Or if not Madden, what sport should EA throw at the Wii to try and garner the same kind of interest they're seeing on the other consoles? This is not rhetorical, I'm genuinely curious.

If you're going to make the argument that the Wii 'deserves' universal 3rd party support because it's the market leader, Wii gamers have to meet 3rd parties halfway and start buying some of the traditional games that 3rd parties tend to throw out there.

 

[Evlar]

When Nintendo gamers start buying 3rd party games as much or even more than 1st, then EA will take notice. Competing for Nintendo gamer dollars against Mario, Pokemon, Zelda, Super Smash, etc. = not fun. Especially since Nintendo gamers are generally splitting their gaming dollar between a handheld and their home console.

Yet no one is all too concerned that the best selling 360 game for the next several years will be Halo 3, and it will remain absolutely unchallenged until and unless Halo 4 is released. Pachter is predicting a two-week Halo 3 attach rate on the console that exceeds 40%. That's better than anything Nintendo's done recently, and perhaps EVER. And a good portion of the other top selling 360 games are likewise either first party or contracted second party. Why the hell does Nintendo catch this criticism but not the other two?

 

[LCGeek]

When Nintendo gamers start buying 3rd party games as much or even more than 1st, then EA will take notice. Competing for Nintendo gamer dollars against Mario, Pokemon, Zelda, Super Smash, etc. = not fun. Especially since Nintendo gamers are generally splitting their gaming dollar between a handheld and their home console.

When ea can start pumping out quality like they did during the nes/snes/genesis then we have something to talk about. Use to be a big ea whore for their pc and console stuff since 96 they've been pumping out crap like no tommorow. Stop giving this audience crap it didn't want much less ask for you figure they would have people who know their history would see their sports platform isn't something that will work on a nintendo system hasn't ever nor will it anytime soon.

 

[ethelred]

You likewise cannot justify away every poor performance as "Well, third parties just can't sell on the Wii, darnit." That's not an explanation, that's a description. And an inaccurate one.

Then it's probably a good thing I've made no such statement! I think they can sell, but overall, they're really just not right now. Maybe that will change... I don't know. But right now we're mostly seeing PS2-level hardware sales combined with GameCube-level third party software sales, and people are coming up with way too many excuses (note: excuses, not explanations) for this reality.

Third party publishers aren't going to be inclined to invest massive budgets in big game development and ad campaigns when they look at the performance of multiplatform titles like Madden and see the results they're seeing here. There's nothing at all that says this sort of effort would be worth the enormous risks.

Yet no one is all too concerned that the best selling 360 game for the next several years will be Halo 3, and it will remain absolutely unchallenged until and unless Halo 4 is released. Pachter is predicting a two-week Halo 3 attach rate on the console that exceeds 40%. That's better than anything Nintendo's done recently, and perhaps EVER. And a good portion of the other top selling 360 games are likewise either first party or contracted second party. Why the hell does Nintendo catch this criticism but not the other two?

Because even when Microsoft has the top selling game, third party game sales are through the roof. That's not the case on the Wii. EA doesn't care what Halo 3 is going to sell -- and if EA's Wii version of Madden sold 8 times what the 360 version sold, they wouldn't care about Mario's sales, either.

 

[Zoramon089]

What do you think EA should do to make the Wii version sell the millions that the PS2 version sold last generation? Or if not Madden, what sport should EA throw at the Wii to try and garner the same kind of interest they're seeing on the other consoles? This is not rhetorical, I'm genuinely curious.

Emphasize the Wii Madden's unique features. Even though the Wii is popular the type of people that buy Madden are the type of people who go for the traditional controls and better graphics, which would mean either the PS3 or 360 versions. EA has to make sure people know that Madden Wii doesn't comprimise the core gameplay in favor of the motion controls

 

[schuelma]

But it didn't sell well -- not well enough to match EA's expectations, anyway, or they would've continued to push subsequent versions of the title.

I don't know about that. We're all just speculating here, but a 6 month old PS2 port most likely outsold the 360 version worldwide. I can't fathom they were disappointed with that result, unless they had some really unrealistic expectations.

And its too early to call Tiger Woods 08 Wii a failure, especially when its doing very well in the U.K. (Let's see how it does next month when it has longer than 3 days to get measured).

 

[LCGeek]

Then it's probably a good thing I've made no such statement! I think they can sell, but overall, they're really just not right now. Maybe that will change... I don't know. But right now we're mostly seeing PS2-level hardware sales combined with GameCube-level third party software sales, and people are coming up with way too many excuses (note: excuses, not explanations) for this reality.

Third party publishers aren't going to be inclined to invest massive budgets in big game development and ad campaigns when they look at the performance of multiplatform titles like Madden and see the results they're seeing here. There's nothing at all that says this sort of effort would be worth the enormous risks.

Because even when Microsoft has the top selling game, third party game sales are through the roof. That's not the case on the Wii.

Excuse it's a fact most 3rd parties make crappy games for nintendo systems since 3d era started. Outside of handful of games each gen I can easily say I'd easily went to other platforms for my fill compared to when I first got into gaming and had tons of 3rd party titles for my early nintendo systems. How many of posts spew the same point 3rd parties won't invest but then whine about results yet seem to forget how they could make money nintendo systems when they on top with marketshare.

 

[Evlar]

Then it's probably a good thing I've made no such statement! I think they can sell, but overall, they're really just not right now. Maybe that will change... I don't know. But right now we're mostly seeing PS2-level hardware sales combined with GameCube-level third party software sales, and people are coming up with way too many excuses (note: excuses, not explanations) for this reality.



Because even when Microsoft has the top selling games, third party game sales are through the roof. That's not the case on the Wii.

Well yeah. That's my point. Gamers on ALL consoles love first party games. There's absolutely no reason to believe the strength of the first party will necessarily crowd out the third party.

 

[yoopoo]

Anyone know which 3rd party games didn't bomb on PS3? There's Madden, COD3...

The exclusives, VF5 and Simga look to be bombs. What else?

 

[Sho_Nuff82]

Yet no one is all too concerned that the best selling 360 game for the next several years will be Halo 3, and it will remain absolutely unchallenged until and unless Halo 4 is released. Pachter is predicting a two-week Halo 3 attach rate on the console that exceeds 40%. That's better than anything Nintendo's done recently, and perhaps EVER. And a good portion of the other top selling 360 games are likewise either first party or contracted second party. Why the hell does Nintendo catch this criticism but not the other two?

Lost Planet
Rainbow Six Vegas
MLB 2k7
NBA Street Homecourt
Def Jam Icon
Ghost Recon Advance Warfighter 2
Spiderman 3
Command & Conquer 3
Guitar Hero 2
The Darkness
NCAA Football 2008
Madden NFL 2008
Bioshock
Two Worlds

are all 360 games that went over 100k (confirmed) in just one NPD reporting period this year, and many have sold over 400k, and 3 (Madden, Bioshock, and Guitar Hero 2) will end up over a million in the US alone before the end of the year.

The only 3rd party Wii game to go over 100k first month was $30. You can't really ignore the difference.

 

[Farmboy]

Well yeah. That's my point. Gamers on ALL consoles love first party games. There's absolutely no reason to believe the strength of the first party will necessarily crowd out the third party.

But Halo 3 is one game. 360 gamers will buy it once, then move on to other software, which is likely to be third party. Wii gamers will buy Metroid Prime 3, the move on to Mario Galaxy, then move on to Smash Bros. Brawl, etc. Like ethelred says, third parties won't care as long as they do well. They do on 360, they don't on Wii -- and they may well see the presence of a constant stream of Nintendo titles, rather than the occasional tentpole franchise release, as a factor in that difference.

There are no doubt many factors impacting the (current) lack of third party sales on Wii, and of course publishers not doing their best is one of them. I've heard from people who work at Nintendo that other publishers regularly complain to them that their games are 'too good', which is pretty laughable -- I guess the only proper response to that is "Then make better games!", really.

But Nintendo gamers being primarily loyal to and interested in first party titles is a factor too, and an undeniable one, even if they are often justified by the gulf in effort and quality between first and third party content on the Wii. Those 'ouch my wallet will hurt lol' posts about the fall Wii line-up seldom mention third party titles, and I bet you those spinning the Wii third party sales don't own too many third party titles themselves.

 

[Evlar]

Lost Planet
Rainbow Six Vegas
MLB 2k7
NBA Street Homecourt
Def Jam Icon
Ghost Recon Advance Warfighter 2
Spiderman 3
Command & Conquer 3
Guitar Hero 2
The Darkness
NCAA Football 2008
Madden NFL 2008
Bioshock
Two Worlds

are all 360 games that went over 100k (confirmed) in just one NPD reporting period this year, and many have sold over 400k, and 3 (Madden, Bioshock, and Guitar Hero 2) will end up over a million in the US alone before the end of the year.

The only 3rd party Wii game to go over 100k first month was $30. You can't really ignore the difference.

Yet you somehow managed to ignore the difference in budget between those games and the Wii third party stable. You also managed to ignore the fact that 360 has had 1.5 to 3 times the userbase of Wii throughout that period.

 

[schuelma]

One point that needs to be made clear is that I don't see how anyone can seriously debate that right now the 360 is a healthier place for 3rd party software. Now that doesn't mean that Wii 3rd party software is selling poorly because I don't think it is. And it doesn't mean that Wii 3rd party software won't sell better in the future, because I believe it will. With that said, the numbers speak for themselves and right now software on the 360 sells like absolute madness.

 

[kammy]

360 Madden > PS2 Madden as I suspected. Finally people are moving on...

only 200k difference with a 100% head start? Shows just how bad MS are doing. PS3 being doomed is overrated. Its doing 360 business at a PS3 price.