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[Beer Monkey]

We'll never know if Wii Sports is a power franchise or not until they release a Wii Sports 2 and sell it for 50 bucks.

 

[Xekrn]

Just to sum up, i can't see a game on the X360 become as big/important/popular as Wii Sports (or soon Wii Fit), or GTA last gen.

Bioshock, I can see it will hit 3M WW finally.

And Dead Rising I think. If it was released this holiday it would do much better. (It is already a million title.)

 

[Count Dookkake]

but what you said is people who bought it for 360 and ps3 chose graphics over controller.

That's what you said.

which discounts the possibility that maybe they don't like the wii control scheme.

so it is irrelevant.

That, is retarded.

Priceless. :lol

 

[felipeko]

Bioshock, I can see it will hit 3M WW finally.

And Dead Rising I think. If it was released this holiday it would do much better. (It is already a million title.)

I'm not sure of that... It sold 400k in its first month in NA, with luck another 300k in europe.. It would need big legs to hit 3M...

And that's not even close to what Wii Sports and GTA are. (That's close to what Mario Party is now.)

Now wonder if you had a Bioshock on a PS2 userbase...

 

[Forgotten Ancient]

No, you misunderstood what i said...
Games sales are always important, but if you only sell to the same fanbase over and over again, you'll lose importance to the rest of market. And that's what usually happens when you have a game not on the leader console, it's harder to reach a broader audience.

And i said they will lose importance, not become irrelevant. Mario 64 lost importance over SMW.

And what franchise on the X360 that become big?
I only can think of Gears.. Most others didn't become all that big. I mean, Mario Party outsell most of the games (if not all) not named Gears (or soon Halo3).


Just to sum up, i can't see a game on the X360 become as big/important/popular as Wii Sports (or soon Wii Fit), or GTA last gen.
Halo will keep being fucking big and strong, but will never reach GTA, Wii Sports status.
And i can't see Madden becoming bigger without Wii. But i can see it becoming a monster with it, if EA delivers.

Well, I agree that Madden 2008 by itself isn't that important. But the series itself is.
Halo 3 will be more important to the 360 than GTAIV because of its exclusivity.

Other new third party titles on the 360 that had success: Dead Rising and Bioshock. Please don't use Wii Sports as the barometer for what constitutes an important game. Under that metric, Galaxy, Zelda, MPIII, and many others are utterly insignificant.

And I would argue that Halo was just as important - if not more important - than GTA last generation. Without Halo, the Xbox would have placed behind the Gamecube without a doubt. GTA may have sold more overall, but it sold to a much smaller percentage of the userbase than Halo or Halo 2.

That said, Halo 3 is coming in just before the start of the 360's third year. Even if it sells more than WiiSports overall (which is impossible), it could never come close to WiiSports' importance. That game has singlehandedly built a second stairway to heaven for Nintendo, right alongside the DS.

 

[Confidence Man]

No, you misunderstood what i said...
Games sales are always important, but if you only sell to the same fanbase over and over again, you'll lose importance to the rest of market. And that's what usually happens when you have a game not on the leader console, it's harder to reach a broader audience.

And i said they will lose importance, not become irrelevant. Mario 64 lost importance over SMW.

And what franchise on the X360 that become big?
I only can think of Gears.. Most others didn't become all that big. I mean, Mario Party outsell most of the games (if not all) not named Gears (or soon Halo3).


Just to sum up, i can't see a game on the X360 become as big/important/popular as Wii Sports (or soon Wii Fit), or GTA last gen.
Halo will keep being fucking big and strong, but will never reach GTA, Wii Sports status.
And i can't see Madden becoming bigger without Wii. But i can see it becoming a monster with it, if EA delivers.

Isn't Wii Sports a pack-in?

 

[Stumpokapow]

Isn't Wii Sports a pack-in?

It's sort of debatable. Yes, it's a pack-in--but we know at least anecdotally that it's a pack-in that's driving hardware sales rather than the other way around. Also, in Japan it's not a pack-in and it's already broken 2 million copies sold (>66% attach rate)

 

[Deku]

It's sort of debatable. Yes, it's a pack-in--but we know at least anecdotally that it's a pack-in that's driving hardware sales rather than the other way around. Also, in Japan it's not a pack-in and it's already broken 2 million copies sold (>66% attach rate)

pack-ins are supposed to drive hardware sales.

 

[Vagabundo]

Narcissistic Personality Disorder

 

[Sho_Nuff82]

No, you misunderstood what i said...
Games sales are always important, but if you only sell to the same fanbase over and over again, you'll lose importance to the rest of market. And that's what usually happens when you have a game not on the leader console, it's harder to reach a broader audience.

You have to ask how long 'the market' at large can ignore a console that's getting all of these highly reviewed, best-selling games. It's naive to think that Halo, GTA, Madden, Guitar Hero, and Oblivion are all selling to the same demographic, the games aren't even remotely similar. In case you hadn't noticed, the fanbase is still expanding, even if it's at a slower rate than the Wii.

If the broader audience wants the games that are on 360, they'll buy it when it hits a price point that suits them. Thinking that the entire market is going to turn their nose at 3rd party publishers just because they're not on Wii is myopic in any region outside of Japan.

And i said they will lose importance, not become irrelevant. Mario 64 lost importance over SMW.

Mario 64 is widely considered one of the top 10 games of all time, made analog control and "camera sticks" synonymous with 3D console gaming, sold millions of copies in every region, and kept the Mario platforming franchise alive for 6 years (before the release of Sunshine). It doesn't become less relevant just because the N64 didn't have a wide enough library to complement it. It's a more important game than Super Mario World by a fairly large margin.

Just to sum up, i can't see a game on the X360 become as big/important/popular as Wii Sports (or soon Wii Fit), or GTA last gen. Halo will keep being fucking big and strong, but will never reach GTA, Wii Sports status.
And i can't see Madden becoming bigger without Wii. But i can see it becoming a monster with it, if EA delivers.

Halo is already at GTA status, at least in America, and it's almost there in Europe.

I think you're making the mistake of linking the Wiis hardware sales to the importance of the GCN franchises that made the transition over. Mario Party, Zelda, Fire Emblem, Paper Mario, and Metroid are selling relatively the same they did in previous iterations - they're just doing it faster because the Wii userbase is moving faster.

Are you arguing that if EA delivered a Madden experience identical across all platforms this year, the Wii version would've sold the most? Keeping in mind that this is impossible due to the online and graphical/animation limitations imposed by Nintendo and the console itself, respectively, the various versions of Madden are nearly indistinguishable from one another from a gameplay perspective when you compare them cross platform.

EA's financials stated that even though unit sales were down this year for Madden, total revenue was up thanks to more people buying it at $60 rather than $50. If all those PS2 sports gamers keep dwindling and they find their way to 360 rather than Wii (because that's the system all of their friends are playing sports games on), EA won't have anything to worry about.

 

[felipeko]

Well, I agree that Madden 2008 by itself isn't that important. But the series itself is.
Halo 3 will be more important to the 360 than GTAIV because of its exclusivity.

Other new third party titles on the 360 that had success: Dead Rising and Bioshock. Please don't use Wii Sports as the barometer for what constitutes an important game. Under that metric, Galaxy, Zelda, MPIII, and many others are utterly insignificant.

And I would argue that Halo was just as important - if not more important - than GTA last generation. Without Halo, the Xbox would have placed behind the Gamecube without a doubt. GTA may have sold more overall, but it sold to a much smaller percentage of the userbase than Halo or Halo 2.

That said, Halo 3 is coming in just before the start of the 360's third year. Even if it sells more than WiiSports overall (which is impossible), it could never come close to WiiSports' importance. That game has singlehandedly built a second stairway to heaven for Nintendo, right alongside the DS.

I'm not talking about importance to one console, or another. But the importance of the game/franchise to the whole market. Like "how many people will care enough about this game".

If a game is not on the console of choice (of the commom people) there's a big chance that they won't care.

If a game is not on the console leader, it can't reach the importance of games that are.

Zelda and MPIII probably are more important this gen, every Nintendo game will be, like we've seen with the sucky Mario Party.
But you're right, Zelda, MPIII and others are utterly insignificant to the whole market. They're mostly fan pleasing games. And that's what Madden will become (or already is), just because they are failing to reach more people.

Mario Galaxy will probably be not that big, but hell, after NSMB we never know...

About Halo and GTA, i dunno, Halo will mean more this time, because X360 means more (than Xbox). But GTA will probably lose a lot of importance, just because PS3 and X360 are not that important as was PS2.


Wii Sports is the most important becase people care about it. And i don't think anyone here can disagree that more people care about Wii Sports than any other game this gen.

 

[Vagabundo]

You have to ask how long 'the market' at large can ignore a console that's getting all of these highly reviewed, best-selling games. It's naive to think that Halo, GTA, Madden, Guitar Hero, and Oblivion are all selling to the same demographic, the games aren't even remotely similar. In case you hadn't noticed, the fanbase is still expanding, even if it's at a slower rate than the Wii.

I just cannot see the 360 gaining the traction here (Europe) no matter what the price point. I cannot say why people are not buying it, but any of my friends who want the HD experience are buying a PS3. They would rather spend and extra €200-€300 euro on it.

In my eyes the 360 is much better value for money, but to the gaming public here, it just does not have the status of the PS brand.

The buying public do not make rational decisions when it comes to buying stuff. They have a highly complex internal model with lots of factors that GAF would find irrelevant. They are the herd.

 

[Beer Monkey]

I just cannot see the 360 gaining the traction here (Europe) no matter what the price point. I cannot say why people are not buying it, but any of my friends who want the HD experience are buying a PS3. They would rather spend and extra €200-€300 euro on it.

Does ChartTrack agree?

 

[felipeko]

You have to ask how long 'the market' at large can ignore a console that's getting all of these highly reviewed, best-selling games. It's naive to think that Halo, GTA, Madden, Guitar Hero, and Oblivion are all selling to the same demographic, the games aren't even remotely similar. In case you hadn't noticed, the fanbase is still expanding, even if it's at a slower rate than the Wii.

Let's ask N64 how long they can ignore a console with highly reviewed, best selling games?
Halo will be more important than last gen.
GTA? Like GTA was on the PS2? Not a chance.
Madden if EA can reach the Wii userbase it will become a monster. If it can't, it will keep pleasing the same fans.
Guitar hero will be fucking huge, it will reach more people than ever.

If the broader audience wants the games that are on 360, they'll buy it when it hits a price point that suits them. Thinking that the entire market is going to turn their nose at 3rd party publishers just because they're not on Wii is myopic in any region outside of Japan.

Maybe the games that the broader audience wants are not on the 360?

Mario 64 is widely considered one of the top 10 games of all time, made analog control and "camera sticks" synonymous with 3D console gaming, sold millions of copies in every region, and kept the Mario platforming franchise alive for 6 years (before the release of Sunshine). It doesn't become less relevant just because the N64 didn't have a wide enough library to complement it. It's a more important game than Super Mario World by a fairly large margin.

Lets ask how many people loved/played/cared Super Mario World over Mario 64?
I know it was important for the industry, developers and all.. But for the market? No, sorry. With Mario 64 or without wouldn't change anything (now wonder without GTA, Wii Sports, Super Mario World, Street Fighter, Final Fantasy...)...

Halo is already at GTA status, at least in America, and it's almost there in Europe.

8 vs 14 million? nah.
It will reach now, since GTA will be less important.

I think you're making the mistake of linking the Wiis hardware sales to the importance of the GCN franchises that made the transition over. Mario Party, Zelda, Fire Emblem, Paper Mario, and Metroid are selling relatively the same they did in previous iterations - they're just doing it faster because the Wii userbase is moving faster.

Like i said.. They're still not important for the overall market. Wii Sports is.

Are you arguing that if EA delivered a Madden experience identical across all platforms this year, the Wii version would've sold the most? Keeping in mind that this is impossible due to the online and graphical/animation limitations imposed by Nintendo and the console itself, respectively, the various versions of Madden are nearly indistinguishable from one another from a gameplay perspective when you compare them cross platform.

No.. All i'm saying is that if EA finds a way to make Madden relevant for Wii owners Madden will be a lot more important this gen. If they don't, Madden will still be important, but not as much as it could. It will probably stay the same importance, or less. But if they find a way to sell Madden on the Wii, it will become a monster, much more than it was last, because it will reach more people (non-Madden players or whoever is buying Wii) this gen.

EA's financials stated that even though unit sales were down this year for Madden, total revenue was up thanks to more people buying it at $60 rather than $50. If all those PS2 sports gamers keep dwindling and they find their way to 360 rather than Wii (because that's the system all of their friends are playing sports games on), EA won't have anything to worry about.

Agreed... But like i said... If they keep selling to the same fanbase (on a expanded market).. You know.. It's not something to be proud of.

 

[Xirj]

Was there an August Canada NPD release, and if so, where could I find it?

Forgive me if it was posted in the forum, I just can't seem to find it.

 

[felipeko]

Was there an August Canada NPD release, and if so, where could I find it?

Forgive me if it was posted in the forum, I just can't seem to find it.

Seems that it will be released monday.

 

[Jokeropia]

Mario Party, Zelda, Fire Emblem, Paper Mario, and Metroid are selling relatively the same they did in previous iterations - they're just doing it faster because the Wii userbase is moving faster.

What do you base this on? Twilight Princess has already outsold Wind Waker, Mario Party 8 will almost assuredly be the best selling game in the series and the others are tracking above their predecessors as well. Wii being a bigger success than GC is driving those series to perform better than before. (Perhaps that's exactly what you're trying to say?)

 

[Jag22]

How is EA going to reach the "Wii" market when most of the Wii's demographic aren't even sports fans.

 

[Jag22]

FWIW, there has been 8 different GTA games, VS 2 Halo games.

 

[Frillen]

NPD threads has bad legs

 

[Oblivion]

With Mario 64 or without wouldn't change anything

Disagree immensely. Without Mario 64, N64 would have been in much MUCH worse shape, imo. Hell, probably even sub-GC levels.

 

[AniHawk]

Disagree immensely. Without Mario 64, N64 would have been in much MUCH worse shape, imo. Hell, probably even sub-GC levels.

Even sub-PS3 levels?

 

[Thunder Monkey]

Even sub-PS3 levels?

Hell is the limit!

 

[felipeko]

Disagree immensely. Without Mario 64, N64 would have been in much MUCH worse shape, imo. Hell, probably even sub-GC levels.

Like i said, i was talking about the overall market. If N64 would have been worse i don't care, it would not have impacted the market... The majority of the market would still be happy with their console of choice, the PS1.

 

[Kiriku]

Halo is already at GTA status, at least in America, and it's almost there in Europe.

Not even close. Europe is a very different market. GTA has always been MUCH bigger over here (in Europe). Xbox struggled, and the 360 isn't that doing that much better, apart from a select few regions. Halo 3 launch may be a big event in the US, not so much in Europe.

Actually, an interesting thing I heard the other day...a friend of mine talked with an MS rep about a survey done recently (in Sweden). It posed the following question: "What's the most important thing for you when deciding which console to buy?"
People could answer anything, guess what the overwhelming majority said?
"If there's a GTA being released for it"

I thought that was kind of crazy. :lol
And of course, it's only a representation of the small country of Sweden, but I wouldn't be surprised at all to see similar answers in many other European countries.

 

[Forgotten Ancient]

Like i said, i was talking about the overall market. If N64 would have been worse i don't care, it would not have impacted the market... The majority of the market would still be happy with their console of choice, the PS1.

It wouldn't have mattered if the N64 came out at all. We're truly in a market where the only thing that exists is the #1 and best-selling. There are no other factors. Nothing else matters. Fuck Mario Galaxy, it ain't got shit on WiiFit.

 

[Oblivion]

Even sub-PS3 levels?

Well, maybe not THAT bad.

 

[felipeko]

It wouldn't have mattered if the N64 came out at all. We're truly in a market where the only thing that exists is the #1 and best-selling. There are no other factors. Nothing else matters. Fuck Mario Galaxy, it ain't got shit on WiiFit.

While i agree that wouldn't mattered if N64 didn't exist, i can't say that this gen #1 will be the only thing that exist.

PS1 could've easily satisfied everyone.

Wii can't. An powerful, traditional console is needed, at least this gen. Or else it would leave a lot of people out of this market. And that would matter a lot.



And i can't say fuck to Mario Galaxy yet, because no one knows how is it going to turn out.. But Zelda? Yeah, fuck Zelda. It wouldn't have changed much.. Even people here forget zelda when talking about good Wii games...

 

[Forgotten Ancient]

While i agree that wouldn't mattered if N64 didn't exist, i can't say that this gen #1 will be the only thing that exist.

PS1 could've easily satisfied everyone.

Wii can't. An powerful, traditional console is needed, at least this gen. Or else it would leave a lot of people out of this market. And that would matter a lot.



And i can't say fuck to Mario Galaxy yet, because no one knows how is it going to turn out.. But Zelda? Yeah, fuck Zelda. It wouldn't have changed much.. Even people here forget zelda when talking about good Wii games...

You are a strange, strange individual.

 

[Eteric Rice]

While i agree that wouldn't mattered if N64 didn't exist, i can't say that this gen #1 will be the only thing that exist.

PS1 could've easily satisfied everyone.

Wii can't. An powerful, traditional console is needed, at least this gen. Or else it would leave a lot of people out of this market. And that would matter a lot.



And i can't say fuck to Mario Galaxy yet, because no one knows how is it going to turn out.. But Zelda? Yeah, fuck Zelda. It wouldn't have changed much.. Even people here forget zelda when talking about good Wii games...

Fuck traditional consoles.

Handhelds are the last bastion of awesome old school gaming.

 

[felipeko]

You are a strange, strange individual.

:lol

Fuck traditional consoles.

Handhelds are the last bastion of awesome old school gaming.

Oh, i don't like handhelds
It would leave me out of the market, and that's not good.

 

[Saint Gregory]

I had to come in and see what ballooned the NPD thread to fifty pages and I've got to say that if I were a Wii only gamer I'd find all this hand-wringing wonderfully delicious :lol

I've seen a lot of people posting messages that suggest that Nintendo is at fault or Nintendo should be concerned about these third party sales. The only ones who should be concerned about third parties sales are the third party publishers who still haven't figured out what going on right now in the market.

When I look at the Madden sales for this month I see two things. First, the industry is experiencing record setting summer console sales yet Madden somehow managed to sell less copies this year than last with an extra week on the market which would mean that some gamers chose to skip out on it altogether rather than upgrade or buy it for the PS2.

Second, it would seem that a lot of people who bought the Wii version last year didn't pick it up this year (myself included). I don't know about the other people but I chose the 360 version this year because I'm not buying it twice and it was better reviewed than the Wii version.

I have the luxury of picking whichever version is best but a lot of people don't. They own one console and if third party publishers choose to release inferior versions of their games for that console then why should they be obliged to buy them? I know that the Wii is underpowered compared to the PS3 and 360 but that doesn't mean that it should be incapable of producing worthwhile games. I can guarantee you that Nintendo isn't going to keep releasing garbage and then it's going to be "Oh, third parties have no chance against Nintendo on their consoles!" all over again.

 

[Eteric Rice]

:lol

Oh, i don't like handhelds
It would leave me out of the market, and that's not good.

That's because handheld awesomeness is to great for normal human comprehension.

 

[Forgotten Ancient]

:lol

Oh, i don't like handhelds
It would leave me out of the market, and that's not good.

I give up on you.

 

[felipeko]

I've seen a lot of people posting messages that suggest that Nintendo is at fault or Nintendo should be concerned about these third party sales. The only ones who should be concerned about third parties sales are the third party publishers who still haven't figured out what going on right now in the market.

When I look at the Madden sales for this month I see two things. First, the industry is experiencing record setting summer console sales yet Madden somehow managed to sell less copies this year than last with an extra week on the market which would mean that some gamers chose to skip out on it altogether rather than upgrade or buy it for the PS2.

Oh, i couldn't have said better, and i even tried.
That's exactly the crazy things i was saying, but in a normal way.

That's because handheld awesomeness is to great for normal human comprehension.

I'm normal
But im a little dazed, i have been in a nudism beach yesterday.. it's very creepy.

 

[LCGeek]

How is EA going to reach the "Wii" market when most of the Wii's demographic aren't even sports fans.

Than explain Wii Sports. Sure it's not the deep experience EA provides to the "Hardcore" gamers but it's definetly a sports title that is fun. Like felipeko has been saying they need to make a better product or one thats worth playing over and over. Till EA's games feel just as consistence as Wii tennis, bowling or golf is the demographic isn't gonna give a crap about ps2 ports with the typical nintendo effort EA shows for their consoles. You'd have a point if it weren't for Wii sports then again not really since I can't recall madden or any ea sports game every performing well since even when nintendo was on top.

 

[davepoobond]

That's because handheld awesomeness is to great for normal human comprehension.

cuz wii will and should be the only option supposedly?

 

[vilmer_]

That's because handheld awesomeness is to great for normal human comprehension.

It's fine if you live on a bus or don't care about losing your vision around the age of 40?

 

[AniHawk]

I give up on you.

 

[Kintaro]

Fuck traditional consoles.

Handhelds are the last bastion of awesome old school gaming.

Are we talking 2D old school or 3D new-old school? Because all of those 2D old school games are turning into ugly PS1 3D new-old school eye killers. =/

 

[830920]

Wait, what? Mario Strikers is actually selling well in US?! Didn't see that one coming.

 

[JoshuaJSlone]

Wii owners overwhelmingly bought dick

Source?

 

[Mariah Carey]

Wow at how long this argument has gone! Look, Nintendo's spent the last ten years getting by without third parties, and at this point have come up with a winning strategy without them. If third parties can't figure out how to sell on Wii, that's their problem, not Nintendo's.

 

[Forgotten Ancient]

Wow at how long this argument has gone! Look, Nintendo's spent the last ten years getting by without third parties, and at this point have come up with a winning strategy without them. If third parties can't figure out how to sell on Wii, that's their problem, not Nintendo's.

I would also say that is gamers' problem.

 

[Saint Gregory]

I would also say that is gamers' problem.

How is that our problem? I have a 7 or 8 game backlog right now that says things are just fine on our end.

And I hope you guys realize how far you've fallen when Mariah Carey is more in touch with reality than you are.
When's your next album BTW?

 

[Eteric Rice]

Are we talking 2D old school or 3D new-old school? Because all of those 2D old school games are turning into ugly PS1 3D new-old school eye killers. =/

...

What?

For some reason I'm having trouble understanding you here. Are you saying SNES, Genesis, etc, games are ugly?

You can't be. I must be reading this wrong.

 

[TheKingsCrown]

Very simply, the Wii is saying: we don't want madden. We want Wii Football. Is it that hard to grasp EA? Christ. Make a new franchise, and don't Mii it out either. And you will sell lots.

 

[JoshuaJSlone]

Wait, what? Mario Strikers is actually selling well in US?! Didn't see that one coming.

Turns out Wii owners prefer football over football.

...

What?

For some reason I'm having trouble understanding you here. Are you saying SNES, Genesis, etc, games are ugly?

You can't be. I must be reading this wrong.

No, he's complaining about things like Final Fantasy IV remake.

 

[pvpness]

Very simply, the Wii is saying: we don't want madden. We want Wii Football. Is it that hard to grasp EA? Christ. Make a new franchise, and don't Mii it out either. And you will sell lots.

Top three reasons people have been trading in or passing up Madden 08 Wii at my store (I always ask):

1. Remote disconnection issues
2. No create a character
3. Online is worthless

Word of mouth is killing it round these parts.

EA got a lot right with 07 on the Wii and then screwed the pooch on 08. They're paying for it.

 

[Saint Gregory]

Top three reasons people have been trading in or passing up Madden 08 Wii at my store (I always ask):

1. Remote disconnection issues
2. No create a character
3. Online is worthless

Word of mouth is killing it round these parts.

EA got a lot right with 07 on the Wii and then screwed the pooch on 08. They're paying for it.

That's the thing I don't understand. Madden '07 Wii was great and sold really well because of it. Madden '08 Wii is by all accounts a poor game, does badly and yet there's something wrong with that?

We have these arguments about Wii third party sales all the time, but whenever you ask someone to name a game that bombed on Wii that really deserved better you're usually greeted with silence...