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[Killer8]

The Pro version appears to have a weaker depth of field effect. You can see it most obviously in this shot:

Pro:

PS5:

Probably a consequence of PSSR scaling as resolution differences are known to change the intensity of effects like DOF and bloom.

 

[Zathalus]

When DF reviewer messed with not normally exposed game settings and essentially faked the FSR 1 review, botching the image, did they apologize or double down?



Who cares that reviewer shows clear bias up to quite noticeable criminal energy applied to shit on competitors? Hm.

As for "FSR 1 is shit" down to unusable - this demonstrates actual awareness and typical IQ level in this thread. Perhaps you should pull your heads out of DF's biased arse more often, pardon my French.

Dude you’re just salty AMD has been utterly dominated by upscaling technologies and is becoming increasingly irrelevant in the PC space, with DLSS being one of the major reasons for that. Imagine trying to stan for FSR 1 of all things. I read your thread about the reviews of FSR 1, it was remarkable in how you tried to make it more than it was and dunked on DLSS every chance you got. How is FSR 1 doing these days, does anyone ever give a shit about a spatial upscaler? DF were absolutely right on the money to be completely dismissive of it.

The other reason I was dismissive of your comment was that your other “contributions” to this thread were complaints about DF and Nvidia from years ago, and had sweet fuck all to do with this topic. Like your post about 8k gaming, DF actually did a video about 8k gaming on the 3090 and came to the conclusion that while possible with DLSS Ultra Performance, it is mostly pointless.

Call me a DF shill or greenboi (can’t believe you actually use that), but I’ll be the first in line to buy an AMD card again once they decide to actually compete at the high end.

 

[Braag]

Sony about to be new the new AI gods. If you're smart, you invest all your money into Sony stocks right now.

/s
for anyone dumb enough

 

[PaintTinJr]

Well here for example there is no extra hair I can see:

https://assetsio.gnwcdn.com/6__Pro.png?width=3840&height=3840&fit=bounds&quality=100&format=jpg&auto=webp

(PS5 Pro image from DF article)

So I presume it "pops" up only in certain key moments of the game? Like a special model which gives Abby a mane of hair only around the side of part of her cheek. Unless she shaves normally and just had a bad shaving day in that particular cutscene.

What do you mean?

Zoom in on that image and you can see hair faintly in that image at similar positioning, and also see a skin colour lobe, which may or may not be related to you thinking it was a skin colour - if the lobe is contributing tiny amounts of colour through the faint hair.

 

[Puscifer]

I'd like to better understand where/how the additional 45% GPU power is being applied because many of the games implementing PSSR have simply adopted the performance mode of base PS5 without improving graphics. In the case of TLOU, what once took them 16.67ms/frame should now take them 11.5ms/frame; taking 2ms PSSR budget into account, that would equate to a theoretical render budget of 13.5ms with 3ms+ to spare, which is a LOT for 60fps budget. Now someone may counter by saying "up to 45% GPU lift", but my response would be that both TLOU Remastered and TLOU Pt. 1 both run ~75fps range most of the time so I am actually being conservative with my numbers (By extension, we should be seeing TLOU games easily running 100fps+ on average in the modes DF has been testing).

For games like Spider-Man and Ratchet, it's even more mind boggling because they already had render budget reserved for ITGI, so net PSSR cost should be more favorable. So again I ask, where is the additional power going??

I wonder if there's some internal statistics they you can enable akin to afterburner but for PlayStation to see CPU and GPU usage.

 

[Gaiff]

I wonder if there's some internal statistics they you can enable akin to afterburner but for PlayStation to see CPU and GPU usage.

They definitely have internal profiling too for devkits.

 

[Lumpyoatmeal]

I'd like to better understand where/how the additional 45% GPU power is being applied because many of the games implementing PSSR have simply adopted the performance mode of base PS5 without improving graphics. In the case of TLOU, what once took them 16.67ms/frame should now take them 11.5ms/frame; taking 2ms PSSR budget into account, that would equate to a theoretical render budget of 13.5ms with 3ms+ to spare, which is a LOT for 60fps budget. Now someone may counter by saying "up to 45% GPU lift", but my response would be that both TLOU Remastered and TLOU Pt. 1 both run ~75fps range most of the time so I am actually being conservative with my numbers (By extension, we should be seeing TLOU games easily running 100fps+ on average in the modes DF has been testing).

For games like Spider-Man and Ratchet, it's even more mind boggling because they already had render budget reserved for ITGI, so net PSSR cost should be more favorable. So again I ask, where is the additional power going??

 

[FireFly]

What do you mean?

Zoom in on that image and you can see hair faintly in that image at similar positioning, and also see a skin colour lobe, which may or may not be related to you thinking it was a skin colour - if the lobe is contributing tiny amounts of colour through the faint hair.

I'm talking about the edge of her cheek, which in the video has an outline of what would be beard length hair that cuts off at her jaw (where she forgot to shave?).

 

[hemo memo]

Ftfy

 

[panda-zebra]

Near the ear just above a sideburn height is a natural height for sweeping tied back non-male hair, and the reason this would be visible on the Pro would be due to an increased FOV, which because AA/AAA game engines render a parallax FOV - like human vision looks in the brain - by default so the render doesn't look flat to our parallax vision looking at a 2D flat display, and instead allows us to see both sides of things slightly like our vision would allow us looking at a diorama of the game world scene.

By increasing the FOV on a Pro version the amount of both sides of an object the camera will see will be increased slightly too - as it appears in that comparison.

An interesting theory, but occam's razor. Looking back at the clip in slow motion a few times it seems more likely the haloing effect is due to simply bringing over and reinforcing temporal data from when the character moves to the viewer's right past brighter background images. There's just enough rotation on the character's head position during this time that I think it would reduce and increase this effect if it was simply out-of-view hair causing it. Once that rightwards motion ceases and moves back to the left, the halo effect instantly vanishes. That kinda confirms it for me -it's not out-of-shot hair, it's a compounded error (bug). not something that won't be ironed out as the algos/learning improve.

 

[Gaiff]

Dude you’re just salty AMD has been utterly dominated by upscaling technologies and is becoming increasingly irrelevant in the PC space, with DLSS being one of the major reasons for that. Imagine trying to stan for FSR 1 of all things. I read your thread about the reviews of FSR 1, it was remarkable in how you tried to make it more than it was and dunked on DLSS every chance you got. How is FSR 1 doing these days, does anyone ever give a shit about a spatial upscaler? DF were absolutely right on the money to be completely dismissive of it.

The other reason I was dismissive of your comment was that your other “contributions” to this thread were complaints about DF and Nvidia from years ago, and had sweet fuck all to do with this topic. Like your post about 8k gaming, DF actually did a video about 8k gaming on the 3090 and came to the conclusion that while possible with DLSS Ultra Performance, it is mostly pointless.

Call me a DF shill or greenboi (can’t believe you actually use that), but I’ll be the first in line to buy an AMD card again once they decide to actually compete at the high end.

Explains everything. I was starting to think this was a bot lol.

 

[SpokkX]

When DF reviewer messed with not normally exposed game settings and essentially faked the FSR 1 review, botching the image, did they apologize or double down?



Who cares that reviewer shows clear bias up to quite noticeable criminal energy applied to shit on competitors? Hm.

As for "FSR 1 is shit" down to unusable - this demonstrates actual awareness and typical IQ level in this thread. Perhaps you should pull your heads out of DF's biased arse more often, pardon my French.

FSR … is shit

1 was worse that whatever AA already out there and even the latest 3.1 looks absolutely terrible, especially in motion

DLSS is so far ahead it is not even funny.

PSSR seems to be better than FSR (not hard) and actally somewhat close to earlier versions of DLSS in some cases.

 

[PandaOk]

FSR … is shit
1 was worse that whatever AA already out there and even the latest 3.1 looks absolutely terrible, especially in motion

this screed is hilariously disconnected but there’s no better proof you don’t know what you’re talking about than claiming “1 was worse that whatever AA already out there”.

FSR1 didn’t have an AA pass, it relied on the in game AA. When the game had good AA, FSR1 was good. Heck FSR1 was good at *lower scaling ratios with higher base resolution* it’s far from useless so far as a basic upscaler goes.

Generally speaking FSR2 requires more work to implement than DLSS and devs just don’t bother! This is exactly why FSR2 mods can often look better than official implementations, because devs don’t bother using FSR2 exclusive features like reactivity masks.

Also on FSR1 for a moment, the performance impact is less than FSR2, so if you’re sticking with the highest quality preset on FSR1 performance gains are typically equivalent to FSR2 Balance. If you’re gaming at higher base resolutions even the first FSR can have its uses.

 

[Senua]

Wow I haven't seen defence for FSR1 in a long time

 

[Shaz12567]

FSR … is shit

1 was worse that whatever AA already out there and even the latest 3.1 looks absolutely terrible, especially in motion

DLSS is so far ahead it is not even funny.

PSSR seems to be better than FSR (not hard) and actally somewhat close to earlier versions of DLSS in some cases.

Just my 2 cents. I use a 4090 and a 7900 XTX for gaming (I am using a Neo G9 57 which requires DP 2.1 and only AMD has that to access 240hz while Nvidia is stuck at 120hz). At higher resolutions such as 4k and above, FSR 3.1 holds up pretty well unless you are pixel peeping.

 

[PaintTinJr]

An interesting theory, but occam's razor. Looking back at the clip in slow motion a few times it seems more likely the haloing effect is due to simply bringing over and reinforcing temporal data from when the character moves to the viewer's right past brighter background images. There's just enough rotation on the character's head position during this time that I think it would reduce and increase this effect if it was simply out-of-view hair causing it. Once that rightwards motion ceases and moves back to the left, the halo effect instantly vanishes. That kinda confirms it for me -it's not out-of-shot hair, it's a compounded error (bug). not something that won't be ironed out as the algos/learning improve.

It isn't a bug as it would have discontinuities, as all graphical bugs invariably do when zoomed in.

So it is quite the opposite with Occam's razor, the most likely thing when the rest of the image is flawless is that the observers - like DF - are looking for issues where there aren't any because they don't understand what is being renderer, how it is composed in parallax and how things creeping into shot but are not fully in shot will give rise to dangling side hair in that position when it is tied back and the hair moves lower and higher between relaxed and taut bun positioning - as is the supreme quality of animation in Naught Dog games since UC1.

 

[SpokkX]

Just my 2 cents. I use a 4090 and a 7900 XTX for gaming (I am using a Neo G9 57 which requires DP 2.1 and only AMD has that to access 240hz while Nvidia is stuck at 120hz). At higher resolutions such as 4k and above, FSR 3.1 holds up pretty well unless you are pixel peeping.

Interesting. The main way it us used today (low res console games) and for scaling 1080p to 4k etc on pc is not the best way to show it

Anyway - FSR really needs AI upscaling to compete. Wonder if AMD can use parts of PSSR for new versions of FSR - they seem to collaborate quite a bit

 

[FireFly]

It isn't a bug as it would have discontinuities, as all graphical bugs invariably do when zoomed in.

Right, the way parts of the outline flicker in and out in the video simply can't be a discontinuity. Perhaps it's a new feature developed specifically for the Pro version to simulate the way real hair disappears in and out of existence. (GhostHair™?)

 

[PaintTinJr]

Right, the way parts of the outline flicker in and out in the video simply can't be a discontinuity. Perhaps it's a new feature developed specifically for the Pro version to simulate the way real hair disappears in and out of existence. (GhostHair™?)

Feel free to screen grab successive frames to show what you mean.

Here you can see there is stray hairs that are in the correct position and free to move

 

[FireFly]

Feel free to screen grab successive frames to show what you mean.

Here you can see there is stray hairs that are in the correct position and free to move

We're not taking about the hairs around the ear, but the flickering outline around the cheek. The video I linked to on the previous page is timestamped to the relevant footage.

 

[PaintTinJr]

We're not taking about the hairs around the ear, but the flickering outline around the cheek. The video I linked to on the previous page is timestamped to the relevant footage.

In the orientation of the character, the parallax camera setup and the position of ears - in line with eyes half way between chin and top of head as any artist/art teacher will advise as the typical position - those straddling hairs are in the correct region.

And looking further at the closeup I cropped, you can easily see a correct intentional haloing effect from the subsurface light scattering in the ear lob in that region too, which can and will alter on small frame composition changes and is likely a contributing source to what we are seeing that is correctly smoothed and shaded.

 

[FireFly]

In the orientation of the character, the parallax camera setup and the position of ears - in line with eyes half way between chin and top of head as any artist/art teacher will advise as the typical position - those straddling hairs are in the correct region.

1.) Did you watch the video?
2.) Did you see the flickering?

 

[M1chl]

Just FYI, lone 4090 is about more than twice the price of PS5 Pro, even in Europe where Pro is more expensive. You don't need to justify it against product of market leader in machine learning.

 

[pasterpl]

Just wondering if the second part of this gen will be developers and publishers showing a bit of middle finger to these 60M PS5 consoles owners with games that are a bit junky with low native resolution and shit upscale with unstable FPS (some games recently released are already like this) and brute force these to perform as they should on PS5 Pro.

 

[Zathalus]

1.) Did you watch the video?
2.) Did you see the flickering?

I thought you guys were arguing over something very hard to spot, but no, that halo effect is very obvious on the Pro. It’s a minor issue, but that’s the nature of ML powered upscaling. Even DLSS still has some minor ghosting issues to this day.

 

[winjer]

FSR … is shit

1 was worse that whatever AA already out there and even the latest 3.1 looks absolutely terrible, especially in motion

DLSS is so far ahead it is not even funny.

PSSR seems to be better than FSR (not hard) and actally somewhat close to earlier versions of DLSS in some cases.

Let's start with the obvious, things like DLSS1 and FSR1 are spatial upscalers. They don't do AA, so they rely on the game's internal AA for decent coverage.

Yes, DLSS is far ahead. But that idea that FSR 3.1 is terrible is completely wrong.
You are probably taking this attitude because you have only seen comparisons with Ratchet and Clack, which has the worst implementation of the tech, by far.
Or maybe you are only thinking about console games, of which there is not one using FSR3.1. Only FSR 3.0, that uses FSR 2.2 upscaling.
In games with proper implementation, or with modded FSR3.1, is already pretty good. In some situations it can be as good as XeSS DP4A.

PSSR is making a strong debut. It's clear that Sony has been working on the tech for a while.
I don't think it's as good as DLSS3, but it's relatively close.

 

[MisterXDTV]

While it's safe to assume that PSSR won't reach DLSS at his first try, I don't understand how we can judge anything about an UNREALESED product

We are watching footage from a DEVKIT at this point. The SDK will be updated again by launch

let's wait a month and see what happens!

 

[VAVA Mk2]

No, a PS5 Pro is not more powerful than a 4090 for those thinking/implying that.

 

[VAVA Mk2]

Eat this Masterrace !!!

LOL a $700 Pro console is not stronger than an $1800 4090

 

[PaintTinJr]

Just wondering if the second part of this gen will be developers and publishers showing a bit of middle finger to these 60M PS5 consoles owners with games that are a bit junky with low native resolution and shit upscale with unstable FPS (some games recently released are already like this) and brute force these to perform as they should on PS5 Pro.

Quite the opposite IMO.

DF's(fuelled by Beyond3d) childish HD ready resolution wars that started with the 360/PS3 gen that they used as a stick to beat the PS3 so that it had to do better graphics, better frame-rate and still hit 720p or 1080p native, otherwise it was technically shit - despite the 360 getting a free pass for all its misgivings with resolution being the main one - is finally coming to an end now that they've drank the Nvidia DLSS Kool aid for years and final given up on "has to be native resolution X".

With the release of the Pro and more importantly PSSR that can run on either, the previous 'DF Persona non grata' for native 720p on PS4 and PS5 - despite being a non-issue for X1 and series S - will subside allowing developers to focus on effects rather than resolution and use 720p and PSSR for +1440p results on the PS5 while 45% more powerful Pro is doing 1080p to +4K .

Ever since resolution counting became a thing devs have wasted so much effort on reaching arbitrary resolutions at the expense of making game experiences better, unlike with the PS2, Gamecube, Dreamcast and previous gens, because at the end of the PS2 gen, a flagship WEGA or TAU series CRT had an internal resolution up to 1280x800, and yet no one playing a great looking SD 512x288 resolution game or less cared about anything other than whether the game was great.

IMO we've effectively had 2.5 gens wasted by DF's nonsense and when PSSR gets going on the base PS5, probably after the Pro is a sales success we are going to see the PS5 games improve massively to lever both the PS5 and Pro IMO.

 

[Zathalus]

Quite the opposite IMO.

DF's(fuelled by Beyond3d) childish HD ready resolution wars that started with the 360/PS3 gen that they used as a stick to beat the PS3 so that it had to do better graphics, better frame-rate and still hit 720p or 1080p native, otherwise it was technically shit - despite the 360 getting a free pass for all its misgivings with resolution being the main one - is finally coming to an end now that they've drank the Nvidia DLSS Kool aid for years and final given up on "has to be native resolution X".

With the release of the Pro and more importantly PSSR that can run on either, the previous 'DF Persona non grata' for native 720p on PS4 and PS5 - despite being a non-issue for X1 and series S - will subside allowing developers to focus on effects rather than resolution and use 720p and PSSR for +1440p results on the PS5 while 45% more powerful Pro is doing 1080p to +4K .

Ever since resolution counting became a thing devs have wasted so much effort on reaching arbitrary resolutions at the expense of make game experiences better, unlike with the PS2, Gamecube, Dreamcast and previous gens, because at the end of the PS2 gen, a flagship WEGA or TAU series CRT had an internal resolution up to 1280x800, and yet no one playing a great looking SD 512x288 resolution game or less cared about anything that whether the game was great.

IMO we've effectively had 2.5 gens wasted by DF's nonsense and when PSSR gets going on the base PS5, probably after the Pro is a sales success we are going to see the PS5 games improve massively to lever both the PS5 and Pro IMO.

For somebody who hates DF, you vastly, vastly overstate the influence and impact they have had on game development. Especially during the PS3/360 days, when they averaged only a few thousand views per video and way under 100k subscribers on YouTube. They didn't even exist for the first few years of the PS3 and 360.

I pretty confident no developer was thinking we better need to hit resolution target X otherwise DF will criticize us. I'd be shocked if most developers (never mind game publishers) even knew who they were back then.

 

[PaintTinJr]

For somebody who hates DF, you vastly, vastly overstate the influence and impact they have had on game development. Especially during the PS3/360 days, when they averaged only a few thousand views per video and way under 100k subscribers on YouTube. They didn't even exist for the first few years of the PS3 and 360.

That's completely wrong. Richard made a big deal about being able to capture Gamecube footage in full 24bit back in the day. Wouldn't have had you pegged as someone that didn't know your Eurogamer history.

Eurogamer was one of the most read gaming outlets outside of the ones that have survived, today and with the SEGA Peter Moore styled promotion, Xbox profiles were integrated into Eurogamers forum, hence why so many Xbox leaning forumites hang on DF's every word and can't see anything wrong with Microsoft in gaming doing their usual playbook,

I pretty confident no developer was thinking we better need to hit resolution target X otherwise DF will criticize us. I'd be shocked if most developers (never mind game publishers) even knew who they were back then.

That's hilarious if you believe that. Everything from Gran Turismo HD concept got pixel counted for negative coverage. Even the amazing MGS4 was indirectly negatively covered from all the lols over at beyond3d which kept resolution lists like firearms to downplay the amazing tech in the PS3 at every opportunity to fuel DF's constant maligning of the console.

 

[Kenneth Haight]

No, a PS5 Pro is not more powerful than a 4090 for those thinking/implying that.

LOL a $700 Pro console is not stronger than an $1800 4090

 

[winjer]

For somebody who hates DF, you vastly, vastly overstate the influence and impact they have had on game development. Especially during the PS3/360 days, when they averaged only a few thousand views per video and way under 100k subscribers on YouTube. They didn't even exist for the first few years of the PS3 and 360.

I pretty confident no developer was thinking we better need to hit resolution target X otherwise DF will criticize us. I'd be shocked if most developers (never mind game publishers) even knew who they were back then.

But they had a great influence in the console wars.
On every forum related to console gaming, people were always using DF's analysis as fodder for their console wars.
DF grew their audiences on those bickerings. And they made a business model out if it.
Despite today not being as egregious as it once was, they are still the main source for these things.

 

[Rudius]

But they had a great influence in the console wars.
On every forum related to console gaming, people were always using DF's analysis as fodder for their console wars.
DF grew their audiences on those bickerings. And they made a business model out if it.
Despite today not being as egregious as it once was, they are still the main source for these things.

Their largest influence was in the early PS4 days, with the hole 900p Xbone fiasco. It helped define the generation.

PS4 Pro vs One X didn't matter much in sales and PS5 vs Series X is usually the same.

 

[JimboJones]

That's hilarious if you believe that. Everything from Gran Turismo HD concept got pixel counted for negative coverage. Even the amazing MGS4 was indirectly negatively covered from all the lols over at beyond3d which kept resolution lists like firearms to downplay the amazing tech in the PS3 at every opportunity to fuel DF's constant maligning of the console.

PS3 deserved everything it got. Thankfully we got the PS4 and a better Sony from it all.

 

[Zathalus]

That's completely wrong. Richard made a big deal about being able to capture Gamecube footage in full 24bit back in the day. Wouldn't have had you pegged as someone that didn't know your Eurogamer history.

Eurogamer was one of the most read gaming outlets outside of the ones that have survived, today and with the SEGA Peter Moore styled promotion, Xbox profiles were integrated into Eurogamers forum, hence why so many Xbox leaning forumites hang on DF's every word and can't see anything wrong with Microsoft in gaming doing their usual playbook,

Digital Foundry only got started in 2008 for video game comparisons, and their YouTube channel only dates back as far as November 2008. Eurogamer was quite small compared to IGN and Gamespot as well. The videos and articles never had anything more than a few dozen to several hundred comments attached to them back in those days. This is not me making stuff up, you can still see these:

Richard Leadbetter

Your trusted source for video game news, reviews and guides, since 1999.

www.eurogamer.net

Face-offs (Page 30)

Your trusted source for video game news, reviews and guides, since 1999.

www.eurogamer.net

Face-offs (Page 29)

Your trusted source for video game news, reviews and guides, since 1999.

www.eurogamer.net

This is simply not anything that game publishers would give a damn about. A few hundred hardcore posters on a niche internet forums is not going to have nearly the amount of impact on game development that you think it would.

That's hilarious if you believe that. Everything from Gran Turismo HD concept got pixel counted for negative coverage. Even the amazing MGS4 was indirectly negatively covered from all the lols over at beyond3d which kept resolution lists like firearms to downplay the amazing tech in the PS3 at every opportunity to fuel DF's constant maligning of the console.

I never said DF didn't pixel count or that fanboys used those results, I said I doubt developers gave a damn what some fanboys on a niche forums thought when seeing the results of a 12k viewed video. It's funny you use Gran Tusimo HD concept and MGS4 as your examples, though, DF never did any videos or articles about them.

But they had a great influence in the console wars.
On every forum related to console gaming, people were always using DF's analysis as fodder for their console wars.
DF grew their audiences on those bickerings. And they made a business model out if it.
Despite today not being as egregious as it once was, they are still the main source for these things.

I agree that they had influence in the console wars. They were used by fanboys on both sides to "win" debates on internet forums. DF also grew their audience from these very debates. That doesn't automatically imply that they had a very large amount of influence to push all consoles games to hit arbitrary resolutions. The resolution "wars" of the PS3/PS4 gen were clearly pushed by Microsoft and Sony themselves.

You are vastly overestimating how popular DF was 15 years ago.

 

[Gaiff]

Quite the opposite IMO.

DF's(fuelled by Beyond3d) childish HD ready resolution wars that started with the 360/PS3 gen that they used as a stick to beat the PS3 so that it had to do better graphics, better frame-rate and still hit 720p or 1080p native, otherwise it was technically shit - despite the 360 getting a free pass for all its misgivings with resolution being the main one - is finally coming to an end now that they've drank the Nvidia DLSS Kool aid for years and final given up on "has to be native resolution X".

With the release of the Pro and more importantly PSSR that can run on either, the previous 'DF Persona non grata' for native 720p on PS4 and PS5 - despite being a non-issue for X1 and series S - will subside allowing developers to focus on effects rather than resolution and use 720p and PSSR for +1440p results on the PS5 while 45% more powerful Pro is doing 1080p to +4K .

Ever since resolution counting became a thing devs have wasted so much effort on reaching arbitrary resolutions at the expense of making game experiences better, unlike with the PS2, Gamecube, Dreamcast and previous gens, because at the end of the PS2 gen, a flagship WEGA or TAU series CRT had an internal resolution up to 1280x800, and yet no one playing a great looking SD 512x288 resolution game or less cared about anything other than whether the game was great.

IMO we've effectively had 2.5 gens wasted by DF's nonsense and when PSSR gets going on the base PS5, probably after the Pro is a sales success we are going to see the PS5 games improve massively to lever both the PS5 and Pro IMO.

You’re completely insane if you think DF has this much influence lmao. Imagine thinking a little tech channel is single-handedly responsible for changing the course of how studios approach image quality. Your takes are embarrassing.

 

[Senua]

But they had a great influence in the console wars.
On every forum related to console gaming, people were always using DF's analysis as fodder for their console wars.
DF grew their audiences on those bickerings. And they made a business model out if it.
Despite today not being as egregious as it once was, they are still the main source for these things.

Meh, all they did was give us the analytics. It's up to us (and the tribalistic primates) what we do with it

 

[Gaiff]

But they had a great influence in the console wars.
On every forum related to console gaming, people were always using DF's analysis as fodder for their console wars.
DF grew their audiences on those bickerings. And they made a business model out if it.
Despite today not being as egregious as it once was, they are still the main source for these things.

Which is cool, but there’s a huge difference between claiming DF has influenced console wars and accusing DF of making devs wast 2.5 generation on resolution. DF is not that influential and by and large, 95% of gamers don’t give a shit about resolution and lots of them don’t even know what it is, let alone the difference between native, input, output, upscaled, etc. Devs don’t give a shit about DF for the most part, so accusing them of changing the course of the industry for the worse is comically out of touch with reality.

 

[FireFly]

I thought you guys were arguing over something very hard to spot, but no, that halo effect is very obvious on the Pro. It’s a minor issue, but that’s the nature of ML powered upscaling. Even DLSS still has some minor ghosting issues to this day.

Based on his lack of response I assume he never actually watched the video.

 

[Zathalus]

You’re completely insane if you think DF has this much influence lmao. Imagine thinking a little tech channel is single-handedly responsible for changing the course of how studios approach image quality. Your takes are embarrassing.

DF is far larger today then they were 15 years ago and Alex has had an ongoing crusade going for several years now against stutters on PC games.

So with this massive reach and influence that DF must have this means that all PC games are now perfectly stutter free right?

 

[Gaiff]

DF is far larger today then they were 15 years ago and Alex has had an ongoing crusade going for several years now against stutters on PC games.

So with this massive reach and influence that DF must have this means that all PC games are now perfectly stutter free right?

Was about to say this lol. I freakin’ wish DF had this much impact on the industry. Maybe then, we’d have stutter-free games on PC.

 

[winjer]

Which is cool, but there’s a huge difference between claiming DF has influenced console wars and accusing DF of making devs wast 2.5 generation on resolution. DF is not that influential and by and large, 95% of gamers don’t give a shit about resolution and lots of them don’t even know what it is, let alone the difference between native, input, output, upscaled, etc. Devs don’t give a shit about DF for the most part, so accusing them of changing the course of the industry for the worse is comically out of touch with reality.

I didn't say they were influential in the resolution devs used. Only that they were influential in the console wars.
That is why I started with this adverb, but.

adverb​

1. (obsolete) Except with; unless with; without.
2. Except; besides; save.
3. Excepting or excluding the fact that; save that; were it not that; unless; -- elliptical, for but that.

 

[Gaiff]

I didn't say they were influential in the resolution devs used. Only that they were influential in the console wars.
That is why I started with this adverb, but.

Not talking about you. Talking about this insane post by PaintTinJr you seem to agree with. Besides, I don’t think Sony or Microsoft care all that much about the console wars on forums.

 

[winjer]

Not talking about you. Talking about this insane post by PaintTinJr you seem to agree with. Besides, I don’t think Sony or Microsoft care all that much about the console wars on forums.

I agree with his technical overview of that generation. He makes a lot of great posts about tech.
And the remark about Beyond3D.
I don't think they were very influential with game devs.

 

[PaintTinJr]

DF is far larger today then they were 15 years ago and Alex has had an ongoing crusade going for several years now against stutters on PC games.

So with this massive reach and influence that DF must have this means that all PC games are now perfectly stutter free right?

The GAF level segment has grown larger with the industry, but if anything DF has less influence over GAF level gamers, now than they used to when they started this pixel counting cancer.

But... to have 1M subs they are reaching x10 times that number of viewers every year with at least 1 of their videos, if not more, in reality going by other successful youtube channels. If they didn't have the influence they wouldn't be making £1m-10m per year as a business going by public info.

 

[Zathalus]

The GAF level segment has grown larger with the industry, but if anything DF has less influence over GAF level gamers, now than they used to when they started this pixel counting cancer.

But... to have 1M subs they are reaching x10 times that number of viewers every year with at least 1 of their videos, if not more, in reality going by other successful youtube channels. If they didn't have the influence they wouldn't be making £1m-10m per year as a business going by public info.

First of all, Digital Foundry didn’t start pixel counting, they only arrived on the scene at the tail end of 2008 and start of 2009. They started picking up steam around the start of the PS4 generation and only really got going when John came on board.

As for views, the most popular video they have ever done was the GTA V PS3 vs PS4 trailer. A comparison that was heavily flattering to the PS4 mind you. Which was 8.2 million views. The overwhelming majority of their modern comparisons and tech reviews do a few hundred thousand on average, and almost all of the PS3 vs 360 comparisons were several thousand views, a far cry from being influential to the wider market. Even today, looking at their YouTube stats on Social blade and the Patreon money, they are making nowhere near £1m a year. Probably around 50-70% of that at most.

The average gamer doesn’t even care or know about them. I’m not even talking about casuals here, I have a bunch of friends that are pretty hardcore gamers that only vaguely know who they are.

 

[PaintTinJr]

First of all, Digital Foundry didn’t start pixel counting, they only arrived on the scene at the tail end of 2008 and start of 2009. They started picking up steam around the start of the PS4 generation and only really got going when John came on board.

As for views, the most popular video they have ever done was the GTA V PS3 vs PS4 trailer. A comparison that was heavily flattering to the PS4 mind you. Which was 8.2 million views. The overwhelming majority of their modern comparisons and tech reviews do a few hundred thousand on average, and almost all of the PS3 vs 360 comparisons were several thousand views, a far cry from being influential to the wider market. Even today, looking at their YouTube stats on Social blade and the Patreon money, they are making nowhere near £1m a year. Probably around 50-70% of that at most.

The average gamer doesn’t even care or known about them. I’m not even talking about casuals here, I have a bunch of friends that are pretty hardcore gamers that only vaguely know who they are.

Sony didn't send Mark Cerny at the start of this generation to be interview by zero influence nobodies called Digital Foundry, only to be insulted by them saying he was wrong, and then followed up with a correction letter about 3D audio on the PS5. They have a big platform which Sony felt they had no choice but to engage with.

Sony consider them an influential outlet and have done since the PS3 generation pretty much needing to give them technical previews of all their first party games to avoid outright negative coverage.

Microsoft consider them to be an influential outlet and give them insider access with sweet trips to exclusive console reveals and sweet paid work. ...and Nvidia consider them to be an influential outlet with vital DF paid work, heck even Nintendo gave them serious time with Mario Kart 8's alleged not quite 60fps angle DF took. Nintendo probably did a placebo patch gave them an interview and got them to sign off on it being a locked 60fps.

So who in AA/AAA gaming isn't giving DF access because of their big influence, exactly? Saying their childish pixel counting didn't impact developers is like saying they didn't create the outcry for performance modes to be in most games this gen.

because most gamers don't even know what frame-rate is, but were still given the choice this gen despite it being far more work for developers that didn't choose that path as alluded to by Cerny in the pro reveal where he states developers were struggling to have enough performance to realise their visions(paraphrasing obviously)

 

[Toots]

Eat this Masterrace !!!

It seems the time has come for a shift in power...

Wait what's that glass breaking noise ?!

Better watch out PC nerds, there's a New Gaming World Order and consoles are the best now
You don't believe me ? Ask the Hulkster