Loxus
Member
Zen4c is ready in APUs right now.
I see no reason why Sony wouldn't take advantage of Zen4c die space area savings.
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Rumor: PS5 Pro Codenamed "Trinity" targeting Late 2024 (some alleged specs leaked)
- Thread starter MisterXDTV
- Start date
- Rumor Platform
I see no reason why Sony wouldn't take advantage of Zen4c die space area savings.
Mr.Phoenix
Member
I don't agree with that. Or anyone that makes that kind of assessment to be honest. It just doesn't make sense to me.
First off, a 30fps game on the PS5, is usually internally running at well over 45fps for probably more than 60% of the time. It can drop occasionally to around 30-35fps. With optimization, they can usually get it to steadily run at over 40fps (hence the HFR fidelity mode).
If you were to take the same PS5 CPU, increase its clocks by like 30%, and increase its cache by at least 100%, that would result in a drastic improvement to overall CPU performance. You don't need to get 30 more frames from a 30fps PS5 game to hit 60fps on the PS5 Pro... you only really need to get around 15-20fps more.
In all honesty, contrary to this being a tech thread, if a game runs at 30fps/60fps on the Pro, isn't a hardware limitation thing per se. It's going to have more to do with the devs than anything else. I am sure others have said this too, the power in these consoles is already being underutilized as is. It's being used as a crutch to brute force poorly optimized code. Thats not going to change with the PS5pro.
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Tqaulity
Member
Time for a little fun discussion wrt narrowing in on the PS5 Pro GPU Specs:
(Searched and didn't see this mentioned here) Anyone else here noticed that AMD recently released the RX 7900M Navi 31 based GPU a few weeks ago? In short, it's AMD's flagship mobile GPU for 2023-2024 which is a 72 CU RDNA 3 part with a TDP of only 180W and theoretical performance of 38.5 TFLOPS (~19.2TFLOPs based on RDNA 2 calculations). On paper, it's essentially a mobile 6800XT config with lower core clock speeds but faster memory. Real world performance is slightly higher than Nvidia RTX 4080 mobile and roughly on par with a desktop RX 7800XT/6800XT/RTX3080/RTX4070.
So why is this important or relevant to the PS5 Pro?
The interesting thing about this card is that while it's fairly large in terms of CU count (72), it's fairly underclocked relative to AMD's RDNA 2/3 lineup with a boost clock of only ~2Ghz. Obviously that was done to keep the TDP in line but it's interesting to see this approach to achieving the 6800XT/7800XT level of perf. We've heard throughout this year that rumors peg the PS5 Pro GPU to be some derivate of an RDNA3 60 CU GPU. I've even pointed out previously that AMD's mobile RDNA3 roadmap does in fact point to several 60 CU based GPUs being targeted for their mid-high end laptop cards. The question is: could a 60CU laptop card actually match a 6800/7800XT desktop in perf?
Well, the 7900M proves that the answer to that in general is yes...but it does so with a bigger CU count of 72 (matching that of the 6800XT). The desktop 7800 XT manages to deliver similar if not slightly faster than 6800XT perf with less CUs (60s) and faster clocks. Keep in mind that PS5 already is clocked at 2.23 Ghz which is over 10% faster than the 7900M. Assuming Sony won't go backwards with their clock speeds and make the PS5 Pro slower (safe assumption), a 60CU GPU with the same clock speeds of base PS5 today would be pretty close to a 7800XT desktop minus slower memory and slightly lower boost clocks.
But hold up, nearly all rumors/leaks on PS5 Pro thus far have pointed to Sony increasing the GPU clocks to somewhere between 2.5-2.8Ghz (much faster than the 7900M). Seeing as how a 7900M with 72CUs and a boost of only 2Ghz already hits 180W TDP, no way we see a PS5 Pro with anywhere near that many CUs and a clock speed of 2.5+ Ghz. So we can expect a much reduced CU count of 60 or potentially lower for yields.
Let's assume 54 CUs for the sake of argument (matches the multiple of 18 that has been in place for BC since PS4 and AMD's own rumored roadmap). Could a 54CU mobile GPU clocked at even 2.5Ghz match the 7900M perf? Consider that a reduction of 72CUs down to 54 CUs is a difference of 18 CUs (or 25%). However, going from a boost of 2Gz up to 2.5Ghz is similarly a 25% increase in clock speed. They roughly cancel each other out right...interesting. Keep in mind that this high clock, lower CU philosophy is consistent with what Mark Cerny discussed during the infamous "Road To PS5" presentation and is consistent with the base model.
Now of course, 25% reduction in CU is not the same as a 25% increase in clocks generally speaking. There are other aspects of the GPU that are impacted in the case of the clock increase and it really depends on the workload to determine what the actual impact will be with the larger GPU vs the faster GPU. But as we've seen with the PS5 vs XBSX thus far, there absolutely will be cases where the 54 CU/2.5 Ghz GPU can match (or outperform) the 72CU/2Ghz. And I'm not even getting in how the clocks between PC and console aren't equivalent since the PC is only boost clock and will likely be running even lower through most gaming. Also, we can't forget the memory speed/bandwidth here which actually sees the 7900M match the rumored PS5 Pro spec of 18Gbps (576GB/s). Assuming the same memory clocks, this discussion becomes much more reasonable.
So what am I saying? No I don't know exactly what the PS5 Pro GPU will be. But based on multiple rumors pointing to something that is ~2x the raw throughput increase over the base PS5, it's pretty clear that we'll be looking at something in the ballpark of a 6800XT/4070 in the best case scenario. The question I've been asking myself is....Is that level of perf even possible for AMD to deliver in a console form factor by 2024? The release of the 7900M shows an alternate approach to reaching that level of perf but shows that AMD can in fact manufacture a GPU delivering that perf level in <200W putting in the realm of possibility for a console. Of course, Sony is likely to take an alternate approach of achieving that performance with a smaller but faster GPU that will save on precious die space and leverage the advanced cooling already in place in the base PS5. The 7800XT/4070/7900M level of perf makes sense when looking at both the theoretical perf (~18-20TFLOPs of RDNA2 is close to the 2x raster improvement being rumored for the PS5 Pro) and actual game benchmarks (quick look at the chart below shows ~70-90% improvement in most games over a RX 7600 - rough PS5 equivalent GPU). So the 7900M GPU and it's achievable performance adds credence to what we can expect with a PS5 in terms of overall perf increase over the base with regards to matching many of the rumors/leak that have already been floating around...Coincidence
?
(Searched and didn't see this mentioned here) Anyone else here noticed that AMD recently released the RX 7900M Navi 31 based GPU a few weeks ago? In short, it's AMD's flagship mobile GPU for 2023-2024 which is a 72 CU RDNA 3 part with a TDP of only 180W and theoretical performance of 38.5 TFLOPS (~19.2TFLOPs based on RDNA 2 calculations). On paper, it's essentially a mobile 6800XT config with lower core clock speeds but faster memory. Real world performance is slightly higher than Nvidia RTX 4080 mobile and roughly on par with a desktop RX 7800XT/6800XT/RTX3080/RTX4070.
So why is this important or relevant to the PS5 Pro?
- Playstation Console GPUs are almost always based on the highest end mobile GPU of that time going back to the PS3's RSX. The new 7900M is the top end of what is possible from team red in 2023 and is now the 2nd fastest mobile GPU on the market only behind Nvidia's 4090 Laptop GPU. Essentially, this is the approximate ceiling of possible performance for a PS5 Pro in 2024.
- The existence of this card proves that AMD can deliver ~7800XT/4070 performance in a laptop form factor at less than 200W in 2023. The TDP can be even lower in 2024 due to fabrication improvements. The previous flagship laptop part from AMD was the 6850M which is ~ a 6700XT equivalent and not too far off from the PS5/XBSX today.
The interesting thing about this card is that while it's fairly large in terms of CU count (72), it's fairly underclocked relative to AMD's RDNA 2/3 lineup with a boost clock of only ~2Ghz. Obviously that was done to keep the TDP in line but it's interesting to see this approach to achieving the 6800XT/7800XT level of perf. We've heard throughout this year that rumors peg the PS5 Pro GPU to be some derivate of an RDNA3 60 CU GPU. I've even pointed out previously that AMD's mobile RDNA3 roadmap does in fact point to several 60 CU based GPUs being targeted for their mid-high end laptop cards. The question is: could a 60CU laptop card actually match a 6800/7800XT desktop in perf?
Well, the 7900M proves that the answer to that in general is yes...but it does so with a bigger CU count of 72 (matching that of the 6800XT). The desktop 7800 XT manages to deliver similar if not slightly faster than 6800XT perf with less CUs (60s) and faster clocks. Keep in mind that PS5 already is clocked at 2.23 Ghz which is over 10% faster than the 7900M. Assuming Sony won't go backwards with their clock speeds and make the PS5 Pro slower (safe assumption), a 60CU GPU with the same clock speeds of base PS5 today would be pretty close to a 7800XT desktop minus slower memory and slightly lower boost clocks.
But hold up, nearly all rumors/leaks on PS5 Pro thus far have pointed to Sony increasing the GPU clocks to somewhere between 2.5-2.8Ghz (much faster than the 7900M). Seeing as how a 7900M with 72CUs and a boost of only 2Ghz already hits 180W TDP, no way we see a PS5 Pro with anywhere near that many CUs and a clock speed of 2.5+ Ghz. So we can expect a much reduced CU count of 60 or potentially lower for yields.
Let's assume 54 CUs for the sake of argument (matches the multiple of 18 that has been in place for BC since PS4 and AMD's own rumored roadmap). Could a 54CU mobile GPU clocked at even 2.5Ghz match the 7900M perf? Consider that a reduction of 72CUs down to 54 CUs is a difference of 18 CUs (or 25%). However, going from a boost of 2Gz up to 2.5Ghz is similarly a 25% increase in clock speed. They roughly cancel each other out right...interesting. Keep in mind that this high clock, lower CU philosophy is consistent with what Mark Cerny discussed during the infamous "Road To PS5" presentation and is consistent with the base model.
Now of course, 25% reduction in CU is not the same as a 25% increase in clocks generally speaking. There are other aspects of the GPU that are impacted in the case of the clock increase and it really depends on the workload to determine what the actual impact will be with the larger GPU vs the faster GPU. But as we've seen with the PS5 vs XBSX thus far, there absolutely will be cases where the 54 CU/2.5 Ghz GPU can match (or outperform) the 72CU/2Ghz. And I'm not even getting in how the clocks between PC and console aren't equivalent since the PC is only boost clock and will likely be running even lower through most gaming. Also, we can't forget the memory speed/bandwidth here which actually sees the 7900M match the rumored PS5 Pro spec of 18Gbps (576GB/s). Assuming the same memory clocks, this discussion becomes much more reasonable.
So what am I saying? No I don't know exactly what the PS5 Pro GPU will be. But based on multiple rumors pointing to something that is ~2x the raw throughput increase over the base PS5, it's pretty clear that we'll be looking at something in the ballpark of a 6800XT/4070 in the best case scenario. The question I've been asking myself is....Is that level of perf even possible for AMD to deliver in a console form factor by 2024? The release of the 7900M shows an alternate approach to reaching that level of perf but shows that AMD can in fact manufacture a GPU delivering that perf level in <200W putting in the realm of possibility for a console. Of course, Sony is likely to take an alternate approach of achieving that performance with a smaller but faster GPU that will save on precious die space and leverage the advanced cooling already in place in the base PS5. The 7800XT/4070/7900M level of perf makes sense when looking at both the theoretical perf (~18-20TFLOPs of RDNA2 is close to the 2x raster improvement being rumored for the PS5 Pro) and actual game benchmarks (quick look at the chart below shows ~70-90% improvement in most games over a RX 7600 - rough PS5 equivalent GPU). So the 7900M GPU and it's achievable performance adds credence to what we can expect with a PS5 in terms of overall perf increase over the base with regards to matching many of the rumors/leak that have already been floating around...Coincidence
?
Provide irrefutable proof of this.
Perrott
Member
Aaron Garbut's (Rockstar North design director) retarded son who uploaded game footage to TikTok.
Investor9872
Member
That's the thing. Cache is the key. Sony needs to, at a minimum, double the cache for the Pro for it to be a meaningful upgrade.
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Loxus
Member
So AMD confirmed Strix Point with Zen5 + Zen5c is coming in 2024, the same year as the PS5 Pro.
AMD next-gen “Strix Point” series with XDNA2 NPU to offer 3x performance boost for generative AI
If the PS5 Pro is truly using Zen2, it's because they cheaped out.
AMD next-gen “Strix Point” series with XDNA2 NPU to offer 3x performance boost for generative AI
If the PS5 Pro is truly using Zen2, it's because they cheaped out.
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Panajev2001a
GAF's Pleasant Genius
PS6 differentiation, PS5 Pro is meant as something people can quickly improve performance with almost zero effort (including for BC).So AMD confirmed Strix Point with Zen5 + Zen5c is coming in 2024, the same year as the PS5 Pro.
AMD next-gen “Strix Point” series with XDNA2 NPU to offer 3x performance boost for generative AI
If the PS5 Pro is truly using Zen2, it's because they cheaped out.
I still hope to be wrong, but HW jumps take longer and longer (because manufacturing technology is slowing down more and more) and need to be bigger and bigger to make a mark: generations should take longer not less as time goes by.
Also, a mega expensive premium PS5 Pro would put PS6 at a risk launching a few years or so later…
So, they did not cheapen out, they just made a polished PS5 which is what the Pro refresh uses if you want a proper leap you need PS6 not a Pro refresh.
Pro consoles are not meant to give you software that could not run on the base console, they are meant for games optimised around the base specs that need some extra grunt. It is a PS6 early early preview of “some” directions maybe, but not many.
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Mr.Phoenix
Member
Unless I am mistaken, the c variant of Zen chips arent designed to exceed clocks higher than 3Ghz. Which is why they are usually USD in conjunction with the full versions of those cores.So AMD confirmed Strix Point with Zen5 + Zen5c is coming in 2024, the same year as the PS5 Pro.
AMD next-gen “Strix Point” series with XDNA2 NPU to offer 3x performance boost for generative AI
If the PS5 Pro is truly using Zen2, it's because they cheaped out.
I really don't see the PS5 using any Zen C variant. It could be Zen 4, or still Zen 2, but I expect to see them add stuff like more cache and XDNA. And of course, as advanced a version of RDNA they can manage. That just makes for an all-around simpler more practical upgrade over the PS5. I just don't see Sony wanting to have anything to do with a PSA5 variant that has devs coding for two different versions of a zen chip... within the same chip.
Loxus
Member
The Zen4c Cores in Phoenix 2 can clock up to 3.5Ghz.
AMD Phoenix 2 Review Evaluates Zen 4, Zen 4c Performance
Edit:
Going from PS4 Jaguar Cores to PS5 Zen 2 Cores didn't stop BC from working, how is going from Zen 2 to Zen4c which is the same as Zen4, affect anything?
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Loxus
Member
Using, let's say 8 Zen5c Cores and 54 RDNA3.5 CUs isn't going to affect the PS6.
By then (2028), Zen 7/8 and RDNA 6/7 would be out.
Hawking Radiation
Member
I honestly hope next gen games are all mandatory 60FPS across the board regardless of genre.Hopefully Rockstar talked with Sony what they need in the Pro to achieve 60fps in GTAVI. GTA VI will be one of the most imported games of all time.
Otherweise there's no point for me to buy the Pro because I can't stand 30fps on my OLED.
Well, in the worst case scenario, I'll upgrade my gaming PC.
30FPS is fucking nauseating. Gives me headaches when it periodically drops to that level in Division 2 on my PC to the point where I'll rather restart the game or do something to fix the issue than continue playing.
HeisenbergFX4
Gold Member
Hawking Radiation
Member
Sorry i meant PS6 and Xbox Next or whatever they gona call the next one.
Mr.Phoenix
Member
Idk, but from everything I have seen, a zen 4c core, is not the same thing as a standard zen 4 core. It's just not. That's why you don't see any processor using only the c variant.The Zen4c Cores in Phoenix 2 can clock up to 3.5Ghz.
AMD Phoenix 2 Review Evaluates Zen 4, Zen 4c Performance
Edit:
Going from PS4 Jaguar Cores to PS5 Zen 2 Cores didn't stop BC from working, how is going from Zen 2 to Zen4c which is the same as Zen4, affect anything?
We are not looking for a CPU that can clock up to 3.5Ghz while having even less cache, we are looking for something that would at the very least clock higher than 4Ghz while doubling the cache the PS5 currently has.
If the C variant of the chips were that great, then they would have replaced the standard variant.... everywhere. Even the Ryzen Z1 extreme APUs that are going into handhelds.. aren't using a zen 4c core, there has to be a reason for that.
Panajev2001a
GAF's Pleasant Genius
If we wait unit 2028 and even if we do, you are both wasting money on what PS5 Pro as a Pro console has always meant to be for Sony and the jump they dedicate to generational improvements.
Again, performance improvements on “basic” CPU and GPU designs is slowing down and manufacturing technology improvements are also slowing down (and forcing even those that were making big SoC into making chiplets which must be another fun detour
). The jump between Zen 5 and Zen 8 might be smaller than Zen 1 to Zen 5. Same thing for RDNA (but you are likely to see quite a few new features in the PS5 GPU just not a decent revamp like they will likely go for PS6).That is one of the problems, IMHO, with your hypothetical PS5 Pro.
Now… AI/ML acceleration and other exotic “dreams” yes, good idea, but again something I only see pushed strongly for PS6 and maybe maybe some preview of it on PS5 Pro.
I think you are looking at the component costs and assembly perspective a bit too much, while ignoring that Sony needs to be pragmatic with where they invest vs MS and other larger competitors (they have money to design a great console, but being cost conscious is important: PS5 design was a good example of that… could have done more, but more was not needed and would have wrecked their margins).
Also, there is an angle of working with and preparing your software partners (internal libraries and tools teams, internal game studios, external game studios). While they started PS5 Pro ideas early on, so they did for PS6, especially if they plan new fancy tech / smart bets they want gaming to embrace and devs to drive. It takes time and a lot of effort, it takes a generation and for PS5 Pro it would be rushed and it would take time and resources away from PS6.
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Panajev2001a
GAF's Pleasant Genius
Well… PS4 Pro taught us something and since then technology keeps slowing down, why were we expecting this to be so wildly different?
DenchDeckard
Moderated wildly
I have faith that Rockstar can give console players, pro users a 40FPS option then save the 60+fps for the PC double dip a year later.
FIngers crossed, they pull some wizardry and get a 60FPS option in current consoles but if not ill take a solid 40fps. I playd spider man 2 at 40FPS and it was "fine" 30FPS on my oleds really hurt though.
FIngers crossed, they pull some wizardry and get a 60FPS option in current consoles but if not ill take a solid 40fps. I playd spider man 2 at 40FPS and it was "fine" 30FPS on my oleds really hurt though.
demigod
Member
It must pains you that the PS5 Pro will have 60fps.
TheRedRiders
Member
I still think the Pro will handle GTA 6 comfortably at 60 FPS, I know Cerny mentioned a few times he always looks for the developers who give him the most criticism during the console design consultation phase.
It's no secret that Rockstar have some of the best programmers in the world and it's very likely they had a strong influence on the PS5 and especially the Pro's development. I remember the first rumor of a Pro to breakout was actually from a R* leaker who claimed the studio had gotten their hands on the mid-gen refresh and this was last year.
I wouldn't be surprised at all if the Pro will be marketed as "the best place to play" the biggest game of the decade, and that'll likely sell enough hardware to meet sales targets until the PC version comes out.
It's no secret that Rockstar have some of the best programmers in the world and it's very likely they had a strong influence on the PS5 and especially the Pro's development. I remember the first rumor of a Pro to breakout was actually from a R* leaker who claimed the studio had gotten their hands on the mid-gen refresh and this was last year.
I wouldn't be surprised at all if the Pro will be marketed as "the best place to play" the biggest game of the decade, and that'll likely sell enough hardware to meet sales targets until the PC version comes out.
lh032
I cry about Xbox and hate PlayStation.
Panajev2001a
GAF's Pleasant Genius
It did not affect anything, but it required Sony to work on it and test the games (likely more stuff changed in the entire stack and more games make stricter assumptions on the HW to get more out of it).The Zen4c Cores in Phoenix 2 can clock up to 3.5Ghz.
AMD Phoenix 2 Review Evaluates Zen 4, Zen 4c Performance
Edit:
Going from PS4 Jaguar Cores to PS5 Zen 2 Cores didn't stop BC from working, how is going from Zen 2 to Zen4c which is the same as Zen4, affect anything?
Remember how quickly people jumped on Cerny’s statement about the top whatever games they were testing?
According to the TPU 7800 XT review (https://www.techpowerup.com/review/amd-radeon-rx-7800-xt/39.html) the 7800 XT averaged 2425 MHz across all tested games, with a power consumption of 250W. So I don't see how a 180W 54 CU part could hit 2.5 GHz without major efficiency improvements.
The high clock lower CU philosophy saves die space at the expense of power efficiency, so it's not a free lunch.
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S0ULZB0URNE
Member
GTA6 PS5 Pro bundle $599 would sell boatloads.
S0ULZB0URNE
Member
I doubt it unless Rockstar is choosing to do this so they can relaunch a 60fps PS6 version.
Daneel Elijah
Member
I think that this is said if the PS5 does nor have a 60fps, the pro version will not have it too. A game playable on the S can, outside of a few exceptions have a 60fps mode on the X and PS5. I hope so at least.
Loxus
Member
That was from two whole different families of CPUs.
Zen2 and Zen4 is the same zen CPU family.
Panajev2001a
GAF's Pleasant Genius
If you take a PC angle then it is still x86-64 with similar SIMD support… no changes required and yet…
Consoles are not PC’s and do not have the same thick layers of abstraction.
Loxus
Member
Zen4c is the same as Zen4.
AMD Zen 4c Not an E-core, 35% Smaller than Zen 4, but with Identical IPC
First things first—Zen 4c has the same exact IPC as Zen 4 (that's performance at a given clock-speed). This is because its front-end, execution stage, load/store component, and internal cache hierarchy is exactly the same. It has the same 88-deep load queue, 64-deep store queue, the same 675,000 µop cache, the exact same INT+FP issue width of 10+6, the same exact INT register file, the same scheduler, and cache latencies. The L1I and L1D caches are the same 32 KB in size as "Zen 4," and so is the dedicated L2 cache, at 1 MB.
Zen4c Cores aren't the same as Intel's E-Cores.
The big point of the hybrid cores, for example, if Sony went with Strix Point.
The 4 Zen5 Cores can clock up to 5.1 Ghz and the 8 Zen5c Cores can clock up to 3.6 Ghz within the limited CPU power budget.
Imo, 8 cores isn't enough for this gen and Zen4c solves this by being smaller.
Mark Cerny would of gone with 16 Cores if the PS5 chip size wasn't a problem.
Not only that, the size of Zen4c allows for a bigger GPU.
This image speaks for itself.
I mean, it's not like the PS5 Zen2 Cores doesn't already look like half Zen4c. One can even say the PS5 is using Zen2c.
Look at Strix Point, then look Strix Halo rumored watts and that's with 16 Zen5 Cores and 40 RDNA3.5 CUs.
If Sony if going with 60 RDNA3.5 CUs, we know they're going to want to clock that GPU as high as possible. Maybe around 3GHz, if they're aiming for 8k with RT.
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Panajev2001a
GAF's Pleasant Genius
Would love to know the implications on the halved L3 though…Zen4c is the same as Zen4.
AMD Zen 4c Not an E-core, 35% Smaller than Zen 4, but with Identical IPC
First things first—Zen 4c has the same exact IPC as Zen 4 (that's performance at a given clock-speed). This is because its front-end, execution stage, load/store component, and internal cache hierarchy is exactly the same. It has the same 88-deep load queue, 64-deep store queue, the same 675,000 µop cache, the exact same INT+FP issue width of 10+6, the same exact INT register file, the same scheduler, and cache latencies. The L1I and L1D caches are the same 32 KB in size as "Zen 4," and so is the dedicated L2 cache, at 1 MB.
Zen4c Cores aren't the same as Intel's E-Cores.
The big point of the hybrid cores, for example, if Sony went with Strix Point.
The 4 Zen5 Cores can clock up to 5.1 Ghz and the 8 Zen5c Cores can clock up to 3.6 Ghz within the limited CPU power budget.
Imo, 8 cores isn't enough for this gen and Zen4c solves this by being smaller.
Not only that, the size of Zen4c allows for a bigger GPU.
This image speaks for itself.
I mean, it's not like the PS5 Zen2 Cores doesn't already look like half Zen4c. One can even say the PS5 is using Zen2c.
Look at Strix Point, then look Strix Halo rumored watts and that's with 16 Zen5 Cores and 40 RDNA3.5 CUs.
If Sony if going with 60 RDNA3.5 CUs, we know they're going to want to clock that GPU as high as possible. Maybe around 3GHz, if they're aiming for 8k with RT.
Loxus
Member
PS5 has 8MB L3 Cache in total.
8 Zen4c Cores gives 16MB L3 Cache in total.
Mownoc
Member
It has to be remembered that a game that is limited to 30fps could often be running higher if the limiter was disabled.
Even if it is completely CPU bound I would expect a performance mode on PS5 Pro. You may not get locked 60fps but an unlocked framerate like God of War had, 40-60 range. Which felt a lot better than playing on the standard PS4 locked to 30 and these days we have VRR support.
But why make the Pro more than a stopgap product? Zen 4c only makes sense if there isn't any additional cost/performance issues on the Pro.
Sorry,I replied to you by mistake.
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Sorry,I replied to you by mistake.
Zen4c is the same as Zen4.
AMD Zen 4c Not an E-core, 35% Smaller than Zen 4, but with Identical IPC
First things first—Zen 4c has the same exact IPC as Zen 4 (that's performance at a given clock-speed). This is because its front-end, execution stage, load/store component, and internal cache hierarchy is exactly the same. It has the same 88-deep load queue, 64-deep store queue, the same 675,000 µop cache, the exact same INT+FP issue width of 10+6, the same exact INT register file, the same scheduler, and cache latencies. The L1I and L1D caches are the same 32 KB in size as "Zen 4," and so is the dedicated L2 cache, at 1 MB.
Zen4c Cores aren't the same as Intel's E-Cores.
The big point of the hybrid cores, for example, if Sony went with Strix Point.
The 4 Zen5 Cores can clock up to 5.1 Ghz and the 8 Zen5c Cores can clock up to 3.6 Ghz within the limited CPU power budget.
Imo, 8 cores isn't enough for this gen and Zen4c solves this by being smaller.
Mark Cerny would of gone with 16 Cores if the PS5 chip size wasn't a problem.
Not only that, the size of Zen4c allows for a bigger GPU.
This image speaks for itself.
I mean, it's not like the PS5 Zen2 Cores doesn't already look like half Zen4c. One can even say the PS5 is using Zen2c.
Look at Strix Point, then look Strix Halo rumored watts and that's with 16 Zen5 Cores and 40 RDNA3.5 CUs.
If Sony if going with 60 RDNA3.5 CUs, we know they're going to want to clock that GPU as high as possible. Maybe around 3GHz, if they're aiming for 8k with RT.
Zen 4c only makes sense if there isn't any additional cost to production of the PS5 pro.
Loxus
Member
I want the Pro to be able to turn 4k/30fps mode and 30fps/RT @ 1080p/1440p into 4k/60fps and 60fps/RT @ 1800p or even @ 4k.
You really think 8 Zen 2 Cores clocked @ 4.2GHz from the previous 3.5GHz is enough to achieve that?
Honestly can't wait for news on this thing. As to the haters have a think about the steam deck OLED, small iterative changes to the machine with a better screen yet people are willing to trade in and buy for very little experience change ( I am a little jealous myself, however the only thing stopping me is the inevitable steam deck 2 next year or the year after and the fact I have only had mine a few months). I loved the difference the PS4 Pro made to games like warzone etc over the base PS4 and I suspect we will at least see that leap once again. £500 - £600 is not that much to spend every 3 years when I buy a new GPU every 2 years and upgrade my PC every 3 or buy a new phone every 2.
Anyway lets hope for some clearer details soon.
Anyway lets hope for some clearer details soon.
Panajev2001a
GAF's Pleasant Genius
Then again the Zen 4 setup is either over provisioned or Zen 4 is designed to rely more on L3 than Zen 2 is…
That depends where the exact bottleneck of the CPU is,cache, frequency or architecture.
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JohnnyFootball
GerAlt-Right. Ciriously.
After reading this, we better get 120 fps games. Fuck this 60 fps shit. Hey, I can dream.Time for a little fun discussion wrt narrowing in on the PS5 Pro GPU Specs:
(Searched and didn't see this mentioned here) Anyone else here noticed that AMD recently released the RX 7900M Navi 31 based GPU a few weeks ago? In short, it's AMD's flagship mobile GPU for 2023-2024 which is a 72 CU RDNA 3 part with a TDP of only 180W and theoretical performance of 38.5 TFLOPS (~19.2TFLOPs based on RDNA 2 calculations). On paper, it's essentially a mobile 6800XT config with lower core clock speeds but faster memory. Real world performance is slightly higher than Nvidia RTX 4080 mobile and roughly on par with a desktop RX 7800XT/6800XT/RTX3080/RTX4070.
So why is this important or relevant to the PS5 Pro?
Now before you guys say it, no I'm not suggesting that this exact card is the PS5 Pro's GPU. But it does give us insight into what is actually possible performance wise within the cost and form factor of a possible PS5 Pro.
- Playstation Console GPUs are almost always based on the highest end mobile GPU of that time going back to the PS3's RSX. The new 7900M is the top end of what is possible from team red in 2023 and is now the 2nd fastest mobile GPU on the market only behind Nvidia's 4090 Laptop GPU. Essentially, this is the approximate ceiling of possible performance for a PS5 Pro in 2024.
- The existence of this card proves that AMD can deliver ~7800XT/4070 performance in a laptop form factor at less than 200W in 2023. The TDP can be even lower in 2024 due to fabrication improvements. The previous flagship laptop part from AMD was the 6850M which is ~ a 6700XT equivalent and not too far off from the PS5/XBSX today.
The interesting thing about this card is that while it's fairly large in terms of CU count (72), it's fairly underclocked relative to AMD's RDNA 2/3 lineup with a boost clock of only ~2Ghz. Obviously that was done to keep the TDP in line but it's interesting to see this approach to achieving the 6800XT/7800XT level of perf. We've heard throughout this year that rumors peg the PS5 Pro GPU to be some derivate of an RDNA3 60 CU GPU. I've even pointed out previously that AMD's mobile RDNA3 roadmap does in fact point to several 60 CU based GPUs being targeted for their mid-high end laptop cards. The question is: could a 60CU laptop card actually match a 6800/7800XT desktop in perf?
Well, the 7900M proves that the answer to that in general is yes...but it does so with a bigger CU count of 72 (matching that of the 6800XT). The desktop 7800 XT manages to deliver similar if not slightly faster than 6800XT perf with less CUs (60s) and faster clocks. Keep in mind that PS5 already is clocked at 2.23 Ghz which is over 10% faster than the 7900M. Assuming Sony won't go backwards with their clock speeds and make the PS5 Pro slower (safe assumption), a 60CU GPU with the same clock speeds of base PS5 today would be pretty close to a 7800XT desktop minus slower memory and slightly lower boost clocks.
But hold up, nearly all rumors/leaks on PS5 Pro thus far have pointed to Sony increasing the GPU clocks to somewhere between 2.5-2.8Ghz (much faster than the 7900M). Seeing as how a 7900M with 72CUs and a boost of only 2Ghz already hits 180W TDP, no way we see a PS5 Pro with anywhere near that many CUs and a clock speed of 2.5+ Ghz. So we can expect a much reduced CU count of 60 or potentially lower for yields.
Let's assume 54 CUs for the sake of argument (matches the multiple of 18 that has been in place for BC since PS4 and AMD's own rumored roadmap). Could a 54CU mobile GPU clocked at even 2.5Ghz match the 7900M perf? Consider that a reduction of 72CUs down to 54 CUs is a difference of 18 CUs (or 25%). However, going from a boost of 2Gz up to 2.5Ghz is similarly a 25% increase in clock speed. They roughly cancel each other out right...interesting. Keep in mind that this high clock, lower CU philosophy is consistent with what Mark Cerny discussed during the infamous "Road To PS5" presentation and is consistent with the base model.
Now of course, 25% reduction in CU is not the same as a 25% increase in clocks generally speaking. There are other aspects of the GPU that are impacted in the case of the clock increase and it really depends on the workload to determine what the actual impact will be with the larger GPU vs the faster GPU. But as we've seen with the PS5 vs XBSX thus far, there absolutely will be cases where the 54 CU/2.5 Ghz GPU can match (or outperform) the 72CU/2Ghz. And I'm not even getting in how the clocks between PC and console aren't equivalent since the PC is only boost clock and will likely be running even lower through most gaming. Also, we can't forget the memory speed/bandwidth here which actually sees the 7900M match the rumored PS5 Pro spec of 18Gbps (576GB/s). Assuming the same memory clocks, this discussion becomes much more reasonable.
So what am I saying? No I don't know exactly what the PS5 Pro GPU will be. But based on multiple rumors pointing to something that is ~2x the raw throughput increase over the base PS5, it's pretty clear that we'll be looking at something in the ballpark of a 6800XT/4070 in the best case scenario. The question I've been asking myself is....Is that level of perf even possible for AMD to deliver in a console form factor by 2024? The release of the 7900M shows an alternate approach to reaching that level of perf but shows that AMD can in fact manufacture a GPU delivering that perf level in <200W putting in the realm of possibility for a console. Of course, Sony is likely to take an alternate approach of achieving that performance with a smaller but faster GPU that will save on precious die space and leverage the advanced cooling already in place in the base PS5. The 7800XT/4070/7900M level of perf makes sense when looking at both the theoretical perf (~18-20TFLOPs of RDNA2 is close to the 2x raster improvement being rumored for the PS5 Pro) and actual game benchmarks (quick look at the chart below shows ~70-90% improvement in most games over a RX 7600 - rough PS5 equivalent GPU). So the 7900M GPU and it's achievable performance adds credence to what we can expect with a PS5 in terms of overall perf increase over the base with regards to matching many of the rumors/leak that have already been floating around...Coincidence
JohnnyFootball
GerAlt-Right. Ciriously.
I will legit not play GTA6 if it's 30 fps, I will wait for PC. I have gotten too used to high fps gaming. 60 fps is barely tolerable for me. People talk about visual fidelity, but the choppiness/smearing of 30 fps absolutely ruins any sort of visual gains going from 60 to 30. I consider smoothness to be as much a part of the visual appeal as I do visual bells and whistles.
splattered
Member
Man after reading about the small bump in upgrades here for a pro model... If Xbox really does skip the traditional pro model and instead drops next Gen beast earlier than expected then I'm all for it.
MisterXDTV
Member
Even if they come out with a 40 Tflops early next-gen machine, they will sell 2 of them...
Xbox consoles are dead for good...
And killing this generation (TWO CONSOLES) after just 5 years will ruin the image of the brand even faster...
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Loxus
Member
The next Xbox is rumored to release 2025-2026.
Imo, it would make sense for Sony to release the PS5 Pro powerful enough to hang with the next Xbox until the PS6 releases.
HeisenbergFX4
Gold Member
The next Xbox is rumored to release 2025-2026.
Imo, it would make sense for Sony to release the PS5 Pro powerful enough to hang with the next Xbox until the PS6 releases.
Kepler is the only one I have seen agreeing with my "whispers" I heard even posting it here a couple of weeks before he said this
My statements on Aug 2nd
MisterXDTV
Member
"Next Gen starts when Sony says so..."
Physiognomonics
Member
Is Zen 4 software 100% compatible with Zen 2 without developer patches? There you have your answer why they'll use Zen 2 in PS5 Pro.
Daneel Elijah
Member
The problem for Xbox will be to have their console considered early next gen and not a late current gen Pro. Too soon and there is no way for them to have something comparable to the PS6, as the tech simply don't exist yet. Too late and it will just be a weaker console for no good reason. IF they were like Apple and willing to create their own tech it would be another discussion. But I find this idea really weird because we know that with Gamepass they will support the Series S/X 2 years at least for the transition. It could be great, if the hardware is there and they somehow find a way to predict what Sony and Nintendo plan to do and have a response ready. But I can't imagine that work out well for them. If this next gen console is really early, like 2/3 years before the PS6, and the market follows and make games for it, I may take one.
Loxus
Member
So we're getting Zen2 on PS6 then, that sucks.
HeisenbergFX4
Gold Member
yeah we wont get it in the Pro and actually NextBox will have it well ahead of the PS6So we're getting Zen2 on PS6 then, that sucks.
Guesses and all that jazz btw