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Silent Hill 2 |OT| You promised you'd take me there again someday...

bender

What time is it?
I dunno. I'm enjoying the game but I see exactly where he's coming from. I thought the same with his views on RE4make, Rise of the Ronin, etc. I love both of those games but he didn't. SH2 remake is the current darling so of course people are going to cry foul if someone roasts it in any way.

The thing that has me most in awe is that there are scores of games that were trashed for the same reasons SH2 remake is being praised. That's not a slight against SH2 remake, just an example of how fickle gamers can be.

Mark triggered a lot more people with his Stellar Blade review. He's a mechanics snob and I mean that in the best way possible. He does tend to rally against modern game design but he articulates his position so I appreciate his viewpoints.

I'm still early on in the SH2 review but he hasn't seemed overly harsh and I do agree that fixed camera angles do have some benefits in framing, tension, and how music is delivered (which I don't think he touched on).
 

Hugare

Member
Mark triggered a lot more people with his Stellar Blade review. He's a mechanics snob and I mean that in the best way possible. He does tend to rally against modern game design but he articulates his position so I appreciate his viewpoints.

I'm still early on in the SH2 review but he hasn't seemed overly harsh and I do agree that fixed camera angles do have some benefits in framing, tension, and how music is delivered (which I don't think he touched on).
I still have to watch the whole video, but I dunno, man. I see the appeal in fixed camera angles, but over the shoulder 3rd person camera is way, way more tense imo.

And also more dynamic. You can do so much more diverse scenarios with over the shoulder camera. Things like changing environment when you move the camera is so cool and fits Silent Hill perfectly.

It just really sounds like he is snob. Dont know what would be his perfect remake. Just updating graphics and keeping everything else? Including fixed camera and stilted combat?

And about the music, it's very dynamic in the remake and all about sound was just a masterclass. Flawless. The one aspect of the game I would give a 10/10
 

adamsapple

Or is it just one of Phil's balls in my throat?
Chugging along. 5/8 endings done, should be done with the platinum by tonight hopefully.

Will post more on my thoughts on the game then.

Some non-spoiler pictures in the mean time. If someone wants to make a Spoiler topic, that'd be great. The new ending's are worth discussing.


Uhgb8fZ.jpeg


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j3AmLWa.jpeg


K9GfyI2.jpeg


rvPx3QF.jpeg


Uz067pj.jpeg


r0zzYPc.jpeg


tiyLctz.jpeg


KgZCwPJ.jpeg


osKWqsV.jpeg



 

bender

What time is it?
I still have to watch the whole video, but I dunno, man. I see the appeal in fixed camera angles, but over the shoulder 3rd person camera is way, way more tense imo.

And also more dynamic.
You can do so much more diverse scenarios with over the shoulder camera. Things like changing environment when you move the camera is so cool and fits Silent Hill perfectly.

It just really sounds like he is snob. Dont know what would be his perfect remake. Just updating graphics and keeping everything else? Including fixed camera and stilted combat?

And about the music, it's very dynamic in the remake and all about sound was just a masterclass. Flawless. The one aspect of the game I would give a 10/10

Being dynamic and letting you see everything to me makes it inherently less tense. Forcing a perspective can add to things like claustrophobia or directing your attention away from or obscuring danger. The unknown is way more scary than the known which is why you don't want to overshow your monsters in horror flicks, at least not when escalating the tension. That's not to say you can't build tension with a 3rd person camera, but I do agree that the default of forced perspective is old and therefor obsolete is a bit flawed as I think that style of camera still has merit.

He talks about what he'd like from a remake in that he'd like someone's own twist on it and not follow the same tropes most remakes have to modernize them (that weird checklist segment of his video). He then went on to praise some of the things Bloober did like having the restraint not to have RPG elements on the weapons in the game.

I can't really comment on the SH2 remake as I'm saving it for closer to Halloween, but the hard cuts between rooms coincided with music shifts which might make less sense with a different camera perspective.

I'm still going through the video so I'm not sure if he'll mention it, but I think one of the biggest merits for SH2 being remade is that it's making something that isn't easily accessible, accessible again. I do hope we see a rerelease of the originals again though.
 

MiguelItUp

Member
Yeah I think you are right. I hope they passed 2 million already but that might not be the case indeed
Yeah that would be great, but it all depends on what Konami expected or hoped from them. As long as they're sell over the dev budget (or they hit whatever goal Konami had) it'll be good. I just hope they do because it really was a damn good remake.

In terms of graphics, everything looks great except foliage. Bloober should improve that side of their assets and tech.
Really? I thought some of the foliage looked great, REALLY great in some areas. I did see people on Twitter being upset about the blowing leaves, lol.
 
Really? I thought some of the foliage looked great, REALLY great in some areas. I did see people on Twitter being upset about the blowing leaves, lol.
For me, the foliage in the beginning of the game is probably my favorite area in terms of visuals. I stroll through nature a lot and it was just giving me that vibe.

I think the effect for movement is cool, stands out when you're up close but to me it's like, let videogames be videogames. I don't need hyper-realism at all times, I know I'm playing a game. I think it's fun to notice stuff like that in games. Like when you're watching a movie and realize they're using miniatures but it looks amazing, or a painted background for an epic vista but it looks realistic.
 
So I mentioned a few times that I've been playing the Japanese dub, I was watching a review for the game earlier and James' voice sounded really familiar.

Same guy voiced Cutter Slade in Outcast: A New Beginning.

 

Exentryk

Member
Really? I thought some of the foliage looked great, REALLY great in some areas. I did see people on Twitter being upset about the blowing leaves, lol.

I'm not even talking about the blowing leaves, just the static assets. They look so flat and low quality. Compare it to something like Wukong and you'll notice it immediately. I'd share some pics but it's annoying on mobile.

It is also more jarring because the rest of the assets look really good. Good thing is you don't spend too long with foliage around, so it's fine.
 

MiguelItUp

Member
I'm not even talking about the blowing leaves, just the static assets. They look so flat and low quality. Compare it to something like Wukong and you'll notice it immediately. I'd share some pics but it's annoying on mobile.

It is also more jarring because the rest of the assets look really good. Good thing is you don't spend too long with foliage around, so it's fine.
I gotcha, I just never really noticed I guess. Everything I saw I thought looked great/really great. But I could understand being wtf about something when it all looks so good, lol.
 

DavidGzz

Member
This game is lasting me a long time cause I'm only doing short stints between D4 sessions with friends. I'm in the prison. Loving every second. PoE next month and a RE9 reveal soon(I hope). Life is good.
 
Not possible when other people's opinions exist. I just hope that people don't watch stuff like this and take their opinion as factual and as a result they don't play it themselves. (They do, unfortunately.)

To each their own, but I don't know what a lot of these people are smoking, lol.
Yea, I hope the game is a success. I'd like to see bloober do their own take with SH and I like this Konami redemption arc. The game is damn fun to play, by any metric, and the visuals and sound design are damn impressive.

I'll expand on it later but I feel the game's biggest flaw is that it's a remake. I think it would have been better suited to be a new entry but that raises all kinds of questions that I won't go into in the OT.
 

DeepEnigma

Gold Member
Chugging along. 5/8 endings done, should be done with the platinum by tonight hopefully.

Will post more on my thoughts on the game then.

Some non-spoiler pictures in the mean time. If someone wants to make a Spoiler topic, that'd be great. The new ending's are worth discussing.


Uhgb8fZ.jpeg


DXCZ8E3.jpeg


j3AmLWa.jpeg


K9GfyI2.jpeg


rvPx3QF.jpeg


Uz067pj.jpeg


r0zzYPc.jpeg


tiyLctz.jpeg


KgZCwPJ.jpeg


osKWqsV.jpeg



Are you playing in quality or performance?
 

MiguelItUp

Member
Yea, I hope the game is a success. I'd like to see bloober do their own take with SH and I like this Konami redemption arc. The game is damn fun to play, by any metric, and the visuals and sound design are damn impressive.

I'll expand on it later but I feel the game's biggest flaw is that it's a remake. I think it would have been better suited to be a new entry but that raises all kinds of questions that I won't go into in the OT.
Really curious to know what you mean by that. I definitely have a bias as I adored the original SH2 so much, and I was initially so hesitant and cautious about the remake. The turnout left me very impressed and pleasantly surprised. I think the biggest flaw in this situation is that we won't see an original SH title from them in awhile I'd assume, which goes both ways. I'd love for them to remake SH1, 3, and even 4, and I know other teams are going to be working on new SH titles. But I hope we get to a point where we can see an original from the same team both Bloober and Konami.
 

GymWolf

Gold Member
I was watching all the og sh2 cutscenes i saw until now in the remake to see the differences and Wow they really changed james va direction, in the original he sound like a young wimp with some hope but in the remake he sound like an older, gruff disillusioned guy, he is much, much better.

I think i prefer old maria but new angela and laura are better.

Eddie sound and look way more disturbing in the sequel, he also look older?!
 
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Killer8

Member
In case anyone missed, original director Masashi Tsuboyama gave his opinion on the remake:







There are a few interesting observations in how the director has reacted to the remake versus the Youtube essayists (who often proclaim themselves to be the true fans and everyone else as just 'tourists').

The first is how even Masashi considers the remake as an opportunity for a new generation to be able to experience SH2. He considers it distinct from the original, both literally and in the sense that the remake's existence "doesn't affect the original". But I think his statement very clearly shows that he considers someone playing the remake as someone having experienced Silent Hill 2. This directly refutes the gatekeeping attitude to the remake that some critics have been parroting ("not played the original, not a real fan hur dur"). You want to have as many people getting into the series as possible and so pursuing new players as well as old fans is critical.

The other observation is what he has to say about camera perspective, which is what some analysis has been focusing on as a negative of the remake. In his own words there was dissatisfaction with what they tried to accomplish originally. That doesn't take away from the effectiveness of the camera they shipped the game with, but it also shows that they didn't necessarily design it that way purposefully.

"Depth and angle were limited by the processing load" leads me to believe that what people think was something carefully crafted was in fact born out of necessity. It reminds me of when legendary director Akira Kurosawa was asked about a shot in his classic Ran:

mq21kYP.jpeg


This idea that Team Silent were these auteurs who crafted the original exactly in line with their artistic vision is questionable. Even the push to lean further into the small town America setting came directly from Konami suits higher up (it was a bid to appeal more to Americans and boost sales). Almost everyone has to compromise when creating art and Silent Hill 2 was no different. It also reminds me of the old chestnut of "the combat is bad on purpose!", which is a completely unprovable claim and at best could be another case of accidental genius.

You almost get the impression that the remake is what they wanted to create when he calls its camera perspective "even more immersive". But hey, original director or not, what does he know? Sounds like a tourist opinion and not a certified true fan who knows the work better than he does.

Masashi's only real issue appears to be with the way the game has been marketed by Konami, which has been quite poor (see the boneheaded decision to make that trailer focusing on combat which derailed the hype train for months). Then again, the game just crossed the one million mark so perhaps something has gone right.
 
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adamsapple

Or is it just one of Phil's balls in my throat?
Couple of things I thought were worth mentioning.

This game officially confirms the fan speculation (but never outright officially confirmed before IIRC) that Silent Hill is based in Maine.

There are news papers across the game showing Maine.

yuUt095.jpeg




--


Second, the games year was always ambiguous, I don't have a screen handy on me, but when you're exiting Heaven's Night, you can see a calendar on the wall with a 1980's date on it, there might be more in the world but that one caught my eye.
 

evanft

Member
It really is hilarious the absolutely Olympic-level mental gymnastics people will do to try and take what was ultimately a technical/budget-centric decision and turn it into some kind of masterful design choice. Using a fixed camera allowed them to cut down on some of the geometry they would need to render on the PS2, saving performance and memory. Go look at Zealot Tormunds's videos about his third person camera mods for SH2/3. He shows a few of the areas where he had to go back and add in geometry because his mod allows you to see things you weren't supposed to, like missing walls or ceilings. Shit, even with his mod installed you can still see things in the bowling alley that were clearly done to save on rendering, like alcoves that lead to nowhere or a bowling pin that has the half you can't see missing.

I actually just played through the original again after going through the remake. I say this as a fan that played the original back in 2001 and has played it multiple times since: The remake is much better.
  • The camera in the original doesn't make the game more tense at all. It just makes it more difficult to see anything and to get where you're going. It adds frustration, not tension.
  • As much as I dislike the combat in the remake, the original makes it seem like it was designed by Platinum. And no, don't give me that bullshit excuse that the unresponsive controls and bad aiming are there to make you feel less powerful. They're there because Team Silent in 2001 couldn't design a good combat system.
  • Holy shit the original is like 1/3 the size of the remake, and it's worse off for it. So much of the original feels incomplete compared to the remake, like the remake is the intended director's cut of the film while the original is the shitty theatrical version edited by the studio.
  • The voice acting in the remake is astoundingly good. Every member of the cast knocks it out of the park. While the OG is fine for 2001, it comes off as much more stilted and less engaging that the remake. "Oh, well it's supposed to be like that cause MUH DAVID LYNCH" is another bullshit excuse made by fanboys to hand wave away criticism. It completely kills the emotional weight of the story when most of the dialogue is delivered in a way that wouldn't pass muster in a mid-level anime dub nowadays. The cast of the remake, especially James, shows the FUCK up in comparison.
  • The cut scenes are from another dimension in terms of direction, emotional impact, and quality compared to the ones from the original game. This should be expected given the 23 year age gap, but it's really hard to overstate how well done they are.
  • The environments in the remake are chock full of so much more detail and feel like actual places, while the ones in the OG can often feel sparse and empty in comparison.
I'll even take my assessment a step further. Silent Hill 2 Remake is not only better than the original, it's the best Silent Hill game ever made and an absolute stone-cold classic of its genre. Bloober Team has pulled off one of the most unexpected surprises in gaming history, and my only hope is that Konami gives them to the green light to do remakes for SH1 and 3.
 
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DeepEnigma

Gold Member
It really is hilarious the absolutely Olympic-level mental gymnastics people will do to try and take what was ultimately a technical/budget-centric decision and turn it into some kind of masterful design choice.

I actually just played through the original again after going through the remake. I say this as a fan that played the original back in 2001 and has played it multiple times since: The remake is much better.
  • The camera in the original doesn't make the game more tense at all. It just makes it more difficult to see anything and to get where you're going. It adds frustration, not tension.
  • As much as I dislike the combat in the remake, the original makes it seem like it was designed by Platinum. And no, don't give me that bullshit excuse that the unresponsive controls and bad aiming are there to make you feel less powerful. They're there because Team Silent in 2001 couldn't design a good combat system.
  • Holy shit the original is like 1/3 the size of the remake, and it's worse off for it. So much of the original feels incomplete compared to the remake, like the remake is the intended director's cut of the film while the original is the shitty theatrical version edited by the studio.
  • The voice acting in the remake is astoundingly good. Every member of the cast knocks it out of the park. While the OG is fine for 2001, it comes off as much more stilted and less engaging that the remake. "Oh, well it's supposed to be like that cause MUH DAVID LYNCH" is another bullshit excuse made by fanboys to hand wave away criticism. It completely kills the emotional weight of the story when most of the dialogue is delivered in a way that wouldn't pass muster in a mid-level anime dub nowadays. The cast of the remake, especially James, shows the FUCK up in comparison.
  • The cut scenes are from another dimension in terms of direction, emotional impact, and quality compared to the ones from the original game. This should be expected given the 23 year age gap, but it's really hard to overstate how well done they are.
  • The environments in the remake are chock full of so much more detail and feel like actual places, while the ones in the OG can often feel sparse and empty in comparison.
I'll even take my assessment a step further. Silent Hill 2 Remake is not only better than the original, it's the best Silent Hill game ever made and an absolute stone-cold classic of its genre. Bloober Team has pulled off one of the most unexpected surprises in gaming history, and my only hope is that Konami gives them to the green light to do remakes for SH1 and 3.
citizen kane applause GIF
 
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