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UnitedHealthcare CEO Brian Thompson assassinated
- Thread starter EviLore
- Start date
cebri.one
Member
Hard to feel sympathy for the victim, but I do feel sympathy for his family especially the kids.
Imo, this guy suffered a pretty terrible injury that put him in a very dark place. People with these kind of injuries not only sometimes have to endure significant chronic pain but lose also any ability to have sex. At 23-24 that is hard to bear. Depression + pain meds usually do the rest.
The bad thing is that it happened to a guy who was smart enough to not only build an ideological case for what he did, but also plan his actions it extensively, and carry out the murder. I know some people around me that when they decide to do something, do it doesn't matter the pain and cost. They just do it, and this guy seems to fit that type of personality.
I believe he should be imprisoned and given the necessary care. But, as a former lawyer (not in the US), the way politicians and the media are forgetting everything about due process boils my blood. Let's wait for the trial. One thing I learned practicing as a criminal lawyer is to never trust the police. Most of the times they are incredibly incompetent and have zero evidences, they rely to much on the alleged perpetrator to declare themselves guilty.
Imo, this guy suffered a pretty terrible injury that put him in a very dark place. People with these kind of injuries not only sometimes have to endure significant chronic pain but lose also any ability to have sex. At 23-24 that is hard to bear. Depression + pain meds usually do the rest.
The bad thing is that it happened to a guy who was smart enough to not only build an ideological case for what he did, but also plan his actions it extensively, and carry out the murder. I know some people around me that when they decide to do something, do it doesn't matter the pain and cost. They just do it, and this guy seems to fit that type of personality.
I believe he should be imprisoned and given the necessary care. But, as a former lawyer (not in the US), the way politicians and the media are forgetting everything about due process boils my blood. Let's wait for the trial. One thing I learned practicing as a criminal lawyer is to never trust the police. Most of the times they are incredibly incompetent and have zero evidences, they rely to much on the alleged perpetrator to declare themselves guilty.
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DragoonKain
Neighbours from Hell
He's going to get convicted, evidence is overwhelming, I just hope he gets the maximum penalty when he does. Make an example out of him that this type of behavior cannot be tolerated and get justice for Brian and his family.
cebri.one
Member
A former marine killed a guy in the subway and not only he got away with it, he is being cherished by Trump. All types of behaviors are tolerated, it's all about the evidence and the jury.
StreetsofBeige
Gold Member
Anything to do with government takes forever. A combination of bureaucracy and numbnuts who dont know what they are doing or lazy. Once the clock hits 5:00 pm they all run for the door with zero responsibilities when they get home.
Ever been in a car accident? I have many times getting rear ended. Even got rammed by a drunk guy who smashed into a bunch of us. It sucks, but going through insurance to get everything fixed and rental car happens that day. And the car is fixed up and you get it back in less than a month.
One of my old coworkers got his tire smashed up due to a giant pot hole. I thought it'd be a quick process like me getting into a car accident.
I dont know the exact details how it all shook out, but he said it pissed him off It took the gov 12 months to pay up and settle with him (or his insurance). He even had pictures.
I asked a guy a few years ago who works at a payment process company. For years, Canadian federal employees had payment issues getting payroll paid. I asked why. How hard can it be? Just hire ADP or some giant company to handle all that shit. He said they dont and every place does their own thing and it fucks up. Then I said, why does it fuck up? The gov has tons of employees. He said something like just think of it. While the typical company can hire 10 or 100 or 1000 good people, the gov might have to hire 10,000 people. And there's no way all 10,000 can be good..... he said something like "sometimes you just need a body there".
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DragoonKain
Neighbours from Hell
That was in reference to the sentence, not the verdict. When Luigi is found guilty I hope he gets the maximum sentence. The Penny case obviously does not apply because he was found not guilty, so there was no sentence to hand out.
cebri.one
Member
I'm referring to the "tolerated behavior", same behavior can be tolerated (by the justice system) depending on different variables. Choking a guy to death should be punishable imo, even if accidentally, jury didn't think so.
DragoonKain
Neighbours from Hell
Well it's not the same behavior. Not all killings are created equally. It's the same outcome, but not the same behavior/action. It's why different crimes carry different sentences, we've decided as a society one type of crime is more unforgivable than another. I believe what Luigi did is objectively worse... much much worse, and more evil than what Penny did. One was an intentional targeted act with evil intent. The other was deemed by a jury to be more of an accidental nature, or at the very least, they did not have enough evidence to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that he acted with negligence or malice. So my overall point is we need to make examples of those who individually target specific people for murder they don't like to deter these types of actions in future as much as possible.
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cebri.one
Member
Yeah that's why the trial has to play out. But again, I'm not even thinking about this case, we know some cases are treated differently, and society tolerates a lot depending on who is the perpetrator and who is the victim.
edit: I don't think he will get a death sentence even if he is found out guilty. The guy probably doesn't care and you'd make him a martyr.
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DragoonKain
Neighbours from Hell
There's a lot less nuance in this particular case compared to the Penny case. The Penny case was a question of intent and if Neely was a threat and if the actions were justifiable.
There's not going to be any question on whether or not the actions with Luigi were justifiable. Brian Thompson was just a guy minding his own business walking down the street. So from that standpoint alone, the defense is going to be very different. They will either argue they have the wrong guy--unlikely given the amount of evidence. Or they will argue an insanity defense. More likely, but also super hard to prove in court, because you need to show the defendant was in a state of mind where they didn't know what they were doing was a crime or they were not in control of their own actions psychologically. The evidence easily shows that's not the case. He planned this crime meticulously and hid his identity so he wouldn't get caught, so he very clearly was aware what he was doing was wrong and any type of planning usually defeats an insanity defense. That's why I've been basically assuming he's going to be found guilty, I just don't see what the defense could possibly do to convince a jury beyond a reasonable doubt that he did not commit this crime or was not guilty of it.
NY has no death penalty, so not a concern there. But I'm hoping for life in prison given the cold blooded nature of it. It was an execution.
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DragoonKain
Neighbours from Hell
Good piece
www.thefp.com
My Conversations With Luigi Mangione
He told me that once we surrendered our agency, we’d surrender everything else.
www.thefp.com
diffusionx
Gold Member
well the guy's kids' lives are ruined forever, not only did their father die, but the entire world is cheering for the guy who did it and making their dad, who in their mind just got up and went to work every day and then came home to spend time with them, into history's greatest villain. We don't know how bad his back pain was. He seems to be walking fine in every picture he's in. He's been in police custody which is not known for its great pain management facilities but is walking around and smiling in court. Anyone who knows anyone with back pain knows that when it hits it really hits. Now maybe he's just been lucky up until now in all these situations but forgive me for being dubious.ifHard to feel sympathy for the victim, but I do feel sympathy for his family especially the kids.
Imo, this guy suffered a pretty terrible injury that put him in a very dark place. People with these kind of injuries not only sometimes have to endure significant chronic pain but lose also any ability to have sex. At 23-24 that is hard to bear. Depression + pain meds usually do the rest.
The bad thing is that it happened to a guy who was smart enough to not only build an ideological case for what he did, but also plan his actions it extensively, and carry out the murder. I know some people around me that when they decide to do something, do it doesn't matter the pain and cost. They just do it, and this guy seems to fit that type of personality.
My Conversations With Luigi Mangione
I believe he should be imprisoned and given the necessary care. But, as a former lawyer (not in the US), the way politicians and the media are forgetting everything about due process boils my blood. Let's wait for the trial. One thing I learned practicing as a criminal lawyer is to never trust the police. Most of the times they are incredibly incompetent and have zero evidences, they rely to much on the alleged perpetrator to declare themselves guilty.My Conversations With Luigi Mangione
He told me that once we surrendered our agency, we’d surrender everything else.
He also didn't build an ideological case, his "manifesto" was basically an Axios article about high US healthcare costs. There's no evidence yet that there was ever any link between UHC and his healthcare, and his family is rich enough to afford good healthcare for him anyway. There's no evidence that health insurance was ever an obstacle in him getting the treatment he needed in his life.
I have to admit I am getting a bit perturbed by the lionization of this guy and the lefty media which is happy to continue to do it, and he has a legal team which is happy to play along. He's a scumbag killer and should be treated as such.
Well first of all, it's not always illegal to murder someone. If someone is an imminent threat you do have the right to defend yourself, even in shitlib states like New York. The Daniel Penny case basically was a question of whether or not the guy was a threat, and did Penny act reasonably to stop the threat.
Shooting a guy in the back while he is walking down the street is totally different, it goes without saying.
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shooter_mcgavin
Banned
Well ...
I don't condone murder but, apologies for going a bit off topic, I find it rich that the people most appalled that a rich CEO of one of the least ethical and moral industries in America was gunned are probably the same ones that defend Israel in conducting genocide on the Palestinian people.
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cebri.one
Member
After the guy was no longer a threat he kept choking him while people around him told him to stop.
Every side on the media justifies "their guys". Weren't the Jan 6 insurrectionist heroes according to some people here? They are going to walk away after very serious actions. Well, except for the stupid lady that got shot in the face.
DeafTourette
Perpetually Offended
That's the part people keep overlooking... It doesn't take a long time to put someone to sleep... Once they go limp, you STOP! Multiple people told the guy to stop choking him but he kept on. He kept depriving his brain of oxygen which lead to his death.
But the jury only saw "crazy black guy" and decided "hey, better safe than sorry" ...
diffusionx
Gold Member
No, he was alive when the cops came. There were also people who helped hold him while he was holding hm down and they were not charged as accessories.
There were black guys in the jury, and black women. You did not pay attention to the case but are taking some racial lens that did not really exist here at all, but one that sites like NYT wanted you to see.
DeafTourette
Perpetually Offended
You can be black and say "this crazy black guy"... It happens. They see a threat even when neutralized ... And go with his craziness... And there IS a racial undertone in a lot of cases. Just because you don't want it to be so doesn't mean there isn't. This country has always had a problem with black and brown people. Not everyone, but it does exist. To deny that race doesn't play a part in some judicial cases is to turn a blind eye to the truth.
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diffusionx
Gold Member
This country, thankfully, has a problem with insane crackhead black guys who threaten and endanger people who are just trying to get to and from work on the subway.
A lady just got literally set on fire in the subway, nobody knows waht this crackhead was going to do and I'm glad someone was there to put a stop to it.
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DeafTourette
Perpetually Offended
What threat or danger did he present other than talking crazy?
diffusionx
Gold Member
read the court transcripts, dude. A jury has already weighed in.
Pegasus Actual
Member
Daniel Penny went out on the subway looking to kill a Black Man (tm).. somehow he managed to pick the guy out at random that had literally dozens of arrests and randomly hit an old lady in the head for no reason breaking her eye socket... What crazy luck! Because the guy clearly was posing no threat and what drove Daniel Penny was of course The Racism. I stand with AOC, Daniel Penny and his ilk make the subway unsafe for fun-loving Michael Jackson impersonators that give so much Joy to The City.
DeafTourette
Perpetually Offended
So... He break a woman's eye socket... In 2021... NOT on the day in question... But in 2021... Which Daniel Penny couldn't have known about and which you brought up AS IF it happened on that day... ON THAT DAY a man suffering a mental health crisis WHO WAS TALKING CRAZY should die.
That's the takeaway I get from your post.
Pegasus Actual
Member
DeafTourette
Perpetually Offended
Daniel Penny acquitted in NYC subway chokehold case over Jordan Neely's death
A Manhattan jury delivered the verdict, clearing Daniel Penny of criminally negligent homicide in Jordan Neely’s death last year.
www.pbs.org
Reading into it more, Penny did the chokehold wrong and for too long ... As I said.
StreetsofBeige
Gold Member
Yup.
Neely was an unstable bum (literally) causing trouble on the subway again. Already a long list of past incidents.
When you got a crazy guy on a train sitting there drunk and mumbling to himself half asleep, nobody cares. A loser, but a loser easy to avoid and ignore. When you got a mental case roaming around saying he's going to kill and lunging at people that's different.
Killing of Jordan Neely - Wikipedia
StreetsofBeige
Gold Member
NY should do what Chicago does. I was in Chicago 20 years ago. At night time, we were amazed. There's 4 of us taking it back to our hotel.
Every handful of cars, there would be a cop and the biggest muzzled guard dog youve ever seen patrolling. I guess their job is to stand in cars spaced out all night watching for trouble. Crazy shit. I dont know what NY does (if anything).
I'd taken the subway all the time to go downtown in Toronto back in the day, including commuting to go to university. And often that involved late night tubing after chilling with friends downtown. Not once in my life had I ever seen cops patrolling subway cars like that at night ever. Aside from the TTC guys working the ticket booths and maybe an occasional custodian cleaning or guy working the Gateway newsstands, the stations are dead empty of employees. The probability of seeing any cop patrolling or weird guy doing crime on the subway was probably 0.1% for cops and 0% for shady shit. The biggest crime you'd see is maybe a jackass putting his foot up or putting his shopping bags or backpack on another seat taking up room when someone else wants to sit.
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DragoonKain
Neighbours from Hell
He threatened to kill people on the subway that day. People were terrified(per accounts at the scene) he did a choke hold. If I recall, he didn't die right there, but died a bit after the choke hold. Regardless, it's not about should, it's cause and effect. If he wouldn't have been there threatening to kill people, the choke hold wouldn't have been used and there would have been no interaction between both persons on that day. "Should" isn't a factor here, it's "was Penny criminally responsible for his death?" and the jury rendered a verdict of no, that he did not commit the crimes he was charged with. Was he responsible in some way, meaning he was a factor in the cause of death? I think the answer to that is very probably yes, but that's a whole other question on if he committed a crime as charged. I don't know the logic used during deliberations, but they obviously had their reasons for not finding him guilty of the charges.
StreetsofBeige
Gold Member
Exactly.
If someone is going to be that random weird guy on a subway (Neely already had 42 other incidents including 3 assaulting women so he's no stranger to dumb shit), then just sit there quietly like the typical subway drunk dozing off all day. You dont go around antagonizing or threatening people.
Whereas other people got unlucky being in Neely's bullseye in past incidents, karma happened and this time his stupidity caught the bullseye of Penny. Lesson learned.
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daffyduck
Member
But he was still charged. Who knows if that dissuaded people to intervene in the subway attack a couple of days ago.
diffusionx
Gold Member
The way NYC used to be policed was that these people would get pinched for something long before they went down in the subway. Or for hopping the turnstiles. A bum who is sitting in a subway car yelling and spitting at people is also going to be doing the same thing above the ground, and it's as illegal above the ground as it is below. In the past that guy would be arrested and sent to jail for harassing people. Now he is not. A guy was not able to be arrested 42 times and then be roaming the subway causing havoc and terrorizing people going to work. People wouldn't be getting into shootouts in Times Square because stop and frisk meant that these thugs would leave their guns at home before they went into the subway. Here is an op-ed from a guy who said that he was just some piece of shit junkie vagrant who got cleaned up thanks to NYC's anti-crime and broken window policing: https://nypost.com/2024/12/21/opinion/new-yorks-old-tough-on-crime-laws-worked-i-know-firsthand/
But when DeBlasio got into office, he dismantled all of that, he dismantled stop and frisk, all because it was "racist", and basically said, hey, criminals, piss wherever you want, shit wherever you want, steal whatever you want, harass whoever you want, if you get arrested it's our fault for being mean to you, and then we get to the situation we have today.
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12Goblins
Lil’ Gobbie
leftist retards think we should tolerate deranged homeless people threatening innocent bystanders going about their day
reasonable people think penny would have been a hero if he subdued this crazed homeless lunatic in an attempt to pacify him and protect those he was threatening
rightist retards think penny was justified in holding a 6 min chokehold (apparently while people are telling him to let go?), subsequently executing a man without a due process under some pretext of justice
Let's be reasonable people
StreetsofBeige
Gold Member
I dont follow NY crime, but holistically I think it used to be really bad, then that guy who was Trump's buddy cleaned it up (I forget his name, but it was the old guy who tried to campaign for Trump last election in front of grubby back alley of shitty buildings), then crime got bad again.
I said it many times on gaf in numerous threads involving shit storms.
It doesn't matter if it's home, work or the general public. You let it get out of control and it just makes it harder to control. Letting it fester can make it not only hard, but possibly impossible to control when the masses go nuts (giant mobs who greatly outnumber cops). You got to control it from the get go and ensure people know if stupidity happens, the authorities will come. If you dont, then the typical troublemaker knows it's open season for dumb stuff.
If people still dont get it. Think of it like a leaky pipe or snow days. You can either get the pipe fixed or clear your snow. Or do nothing and let the problem build up. I guess some people just dont give a shit and let problems add up.
Brazen
Member
I suppose the new moral of the times are never do anything that potentially puts you in judgement of other(s). It's just not worth it.
DragoonKain
Neighbours from Hell
Crime in NYC is actually very good statistically. It's the safest big city in the country and that's even accounting for population size.
But crime on the subways has gotten bad. I think there are several reasons for it.
The problem with crime though is it isn't uniform. Overall it may be in a good place, but that doesn't mean one specific neighborhood, intersection, subway system, etc can't be in a bad place. And the people who live in these areas or frequent these areas feel it. So stats don't mean anything to them if they're living it.
And it could get even better if NY put away repeat offenders. Too many people on the streets who've been arrested 8-10+ times and released. And not for stealing a hot dog either. For beating people up or other violent offenses.
DeafTourette
Perpetually Offended
If all the people you're targeting are black and brown and the shakeout from the program is 10% or less (one or the other) then YES it's racist. If you think the only criminals are black and brown people, then YES that's racist too! Stop and frisk didn't target white folks in the upper west side of wherever "the blacks and Latinos" weren't... It ONLY targeted blacks and Latinos and found guns on less than 10% of those they stopped and frisked... Statistically, it was a failure and did nothing to reduce crime... Crime was reduced through other factors while Stop and Frisk was going on. Look it up... You'll see. Stop and Frisk was barely a blip on what reduced crime under Giuliani.
It seems very unlikely there will be any copycats despite the common talk about 18th century France. No one is going to be inspired by Mangione and start offing oligarchs and their parties with guns, mortars, ieds, radiation, and slow poisons, taking history lessons from the IRA or whatever.
Looking at places with corruption like Russia where the people are so beaten down the will to fight back against oppressors is overwhelmed by helplessness seems similar. Where maybe they want someone to do it, just not them. In America, free speech giving an outlet for commiseration, but not leading to anything. It might be different with people that had determination along with genuine grievances.
Looking at places with corruption like Russia where the people are so beaten down the will to fight back against oppressors is overwhelmed by helplessness seems similar. Where maybe they want someone to do it, just not them. In America, free speech giving an outlet for commiseration, but not leading to anything. It might be different with people that had determination along with genuine grievances.
DragoonKain
Neighbours from Hell
I'm on the sane side that the murder was a heinous act, but if you know Tim and know his sense of humor, this is so Tim.
SlimySnake
Flashless at the Golden Globes
i grew up in nyc, and there were dozens of cops at every major subway station. outside the station, inside the station patrolling the turnstiles and then finally up on the platform. this was post 9/11 but i was there until 2009 and it did not change. at least on the major stations. the last time i was there was a year ago and i didnt see much police presence. they were still there but not the 10-15 i remember seeing back when i used to live there.
this was during the bloomberg admin followed by guiliani who cleaned up the city after decades of rampant crime. but it seems the last few mayors have let it go back to the 70s. at least when it comes to crime. muder is down but crime is up. go figure.
p.s subway rides have always been rocky in nyc. especially at night and in the city. queens is fine, but you go into manhattan and its a bunch of drunk assholes coming back from bars after striking out with women. women are also no angels. i saw several yelling matches between women in the subways. you'd then have your homeless guy, or some drug dealer or some roudy kids from brooklyn. it was always a treat and in a way normal after you've seen it happen so often.
queens was much more calm because at that hour, only normal hardworking people would be coming home from work. i never felt unsafe taking the subway past midnight in queens. zero drama.
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SF Kosmo
Al Jazeera Special Reporter
NYPD is the most heavily resourced police department in the world, with a budget to rival most countries' militaries, and more than triple the closest second place. It also has more officers than any other police department in the world. The idea that anybody has pulled resources from them or "let it go back to the 70" is laughable bullshit.
Now it may be true that just throwing more cops and more money at city without addressing systemic causal factors doesn't actually lower crime rates, but that's another conversation.
MisterFalcon
Member
NYC in the 1970 had crime much, much higher than it is now with 1/3 less people in it.
That was over 1500 murders in a year compared to 386 in 2023. Similarly insane numbers of other violent crimes.
That was over 1500 murders in a year compared to 386 in 2023. Similarly insane numbers of other violent crimes.
Haint
Member
I'm pretty confident their targets were based on formal and anecdotal crime statistics. For example they probably weren't frisking blacks and latinos walking around Wallstreet in $3000 suits. If their data said 90% of gun crime in the city is being committed by blacks and latinos in Queens, it obviously makes no sense to stop and frisk white peepo in the upper west side. And isn't the majority of the NYPD force itself black and latino?
StreetsofBeige
Gold Member
Stop and Frisk finding weapons on 10% of people sounds insanely high to me.
Cop patrolling follows the smoke. And where there's smoke there's fire. In Toronto, you always put a disproportionate number of cops at Jane/Finch (a legendary area known for crime with gangs and drugs forever), and dont bother with putting them in Rosedale.
And even then, where's a lot of big crime reports still come from? Jane/Finch. How often does crime happen in nice neighbourhoods with zero cops? Almost never.
That's the way life works. It's no different than any of us walking down a street. If a sketchy thug is walking towards you, you keep a closer eye. If it's two 70 year old with a cane going on a stroll, the probability of either of them doing something heinous is 0%. So everyone has zero concern. It can be a 100 seniors walking in a parade from their old age home getting fresh air. Zero cops needed to patrol that group.
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Were they going for the Chad meme?
DragoonKain
Neighbours from Hell
After the 94 crime bill was enacted, homicides in America dropped by 1/3rd by 1999. I think other things factored in, but homicides rose nationally from the 60s all the way to the early 90s(with ups and downs on the way) and then in 5 short years plummeted and continued to go down. It shows the impact good policy can have on crime. Imagine cutting anything else in this country by 33% in just 5 years. Cancer, ALS, suicides, whatever. Whoever was responsible would win a Nobel Prize.
Tams
Member
It's the same in London. 'Stop and search' was 'racist'*, so almost never happens.
What's that? Shoplifting, stabbings, and thefts (especially phone thefts by scooter gangs) are at all time highs?! 'wE ShOuLD seT uP MoRe YoUtH cLuBs!'
*certainly a handful were from racist police officers, but the current disorder speaks for itself.
Pagusas
Elden Member
Also worth noting that Lead based everything was prevalent up till the 80s, worth reading the Lead–crime hypothesis
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Donald mac Ronald
Member
Give him blonde hair and it's guido guilelol wtf
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