IrishNinja
Member
vs what? are you currently doing RGB?
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Upscalers, CRTs, PVMs & RGB: Retro gaming done right!
- Thread starter IrishNinja
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vs what? are you currently doing RGB?
soxinthebox
Member
Meaning I just have composite and haven't bothered to get a component cable since people mention it wasn't supported in any PAL GCN games. Would I get any benefits running a composite cable through one of these wonder boxes?
that is not true.
its just progressive scan that wasnt supported.
The picture looks heaps better with component cables.
soxinthebox
Member
Ah that makes some sense. Cheers for the clarification.
ARG! I skip checking this thread for few days and I miss her AGAIN.
Also, if you are getting a Framemeister...don't forget about Wii and its tremendous VC catalog...presented in 240p via component then upscaled to 720p on your HDTV. A lot of folks discount it since all the rage is original hardware but the setup is probably the single best retro thing you can have going on in your gameroom.
Then get the $15 Component->D-Terminal Adapter:
Hey, that's a swell idea. Would be a good use for my Wii for when I get a Wii U. Where did you get your Component->D-Terminal Adapter?
On a side note, I've heard the Wii U image quality is higher, even for Wii games (better gamma or something along those lines), does anyone know if the Wii U still outputs Virtual Console games in their native res like the Wii does?
IrishNinja
Member
yeah, she should be back by like the 16th or so, according to her status? really am debating just grabbing a neo geo RGB cord to have one on hand
and i got my component > d terminal cord from solaris when i bought my XRGB, they bundled it for cheap
I've struggled with getting Wii VC games looking good on Wii U...at least through an XRGB.
I also did not transfer any of my VC titles over as I love my Wiis and intend to use them as VC players. I just double buy titles that come out on Wii U VC since they are cheap enough (and things like Earthbound get released).
Like Irish said, Solaris has the D-Terminal cable adapter. Good for multiple systems like PSP/Wii/PS2/Cube.
But they also make straight D-Terminal cables for the systems. The one for wii is about $20 from japan:
DualX
Member
Give this a shot. If you still have your Wii of course.
I don't believe I've seen anyone mention the Retron 5 console that's coming out soon. Wouldn't that be the best (and cheapest) option for playing these games with the best possible picture? I'm not the biggest fan of the scanlines, but I think there's supposed to be a filter option for it in this thing.
Shadow Hog
Member
Not much better than buying a Retrode and playing your cartridges in emulators, I'm afraid.
Oh no, I'm rocking my original wii with an XRGB Mini. I've just had trouble getting original VC game looking good on the WII U...with the XRGB Mini. That is what I meant. I actually am pretty OK with the way the Wii U upscales its native Wii U VC titles. Not XRGB quality (no scanline option etc) but very good. They look pretty good on the Gamepad as well.
Irate Drake
Neo Member
can someone post some pics of n64 games running through one of these devices?
id greatly apreciate it
id greatly apreciate it
Not an RGB-modded N64 (wish I had one actually) but instead the 480p VC file through the upscaler. Quick and dirty (I'd probably soften the scanlines a bit) but gives you a good idea what N64 games look like on an HDTV.
Shadow Hog
Member
It... really doesn't, actually. N64 games on Wii VC are a lot cleaner than their N64 counterparts.
Yeah, I get that. A lot of N64 things in the image are even better on the VC. I've never seen an RGB-modded N64. I think Irish has one and can post screenies.
I want one for Pilotwings 64, Diddy Kong, and Blast Dozer. That is about it for me since most of the other titles I want are already on VC.
Shadow Hog
Member
I actually have one, but no means of using the RGB side of it for now. Was gonna wait until I got an XRGB-mini and work my way up from there; for now, just using S-Video.
As for S-Video, the pixels are quite sharp, so that's good, but there's this fuzzy filter over everything. It's not just anti-aliasing (btw, it blows my mind that the N64 had this when its contemporaries were content with jaggies) - like, something you'd expect to be a clean pixellated image gets kinda warped around areas with black, or something. It's very hard to explain in words, and I don't have any video to illustrate, but I recall it happening a lot in Yoshi's Story. I'm pretty sure it's not S-Video's fault, but the N64 is just kinda like that (and is why I kinda laugh at the people who were claiming that the Saturn was weaker than the N64 at 2D).
As for S-Video, the pixels are quite sharp, so that's good, but there's this fuzzy filter over everything. It's not just anti-aliasing (btw, it blows my mind that the N64 had this when its contemporaries were content with jaggies) - like, something you'd expect to be a clean pixellated image gets kinda warped around areas with black, or something. It's very hard to explain in words, and I don't have any video to illustrate, but I recall it happening a lot in Yoshi's Story. I'm pretty sure it's not S-Video's fault, but the N64 is just kinda like that (and is why I kinda laugh at the people who were claiming that the Saturn was weaker than the N64 at 2D).
Kabuki Quantum Lover
Member
Gaddam that Framemeister is pricey as fuck.
Shadow Hog
Member
Doesn't help that USD/JPY is going ever lower and lower.
96.25 as of writing. It was 99.49 on the 1st...
Just FYI, I took this shot in an emulator, which is why it looks like it's "emulator quality." If you want to get into buying RGB cables for your consoles to use with an XRGB3, and/or want to mod them to get RGB output, there are some good links in the OP to get you started. There's a lot to learn.
drhankmccoyphd
Member
Would also like to know this. I've been playing around with Retroarch and Steam Big Picture Mode since I now have my PC a few feet from my LCD. I'm pretty happy with the results when I use the scanline filter in Nestopia.
GayForMaster
Banned
Regarding the XRGB3, do you think it's worth 299?
IrishNinja
Member
i remember someone here saying the 3 was better at certain tasks (maybe early 3D/32 bit stuff? I forget) but depending on what you're after, you can again get an XRGB mini for like $50+ more
I have both. I would go for the Framemeister unless you have a specific reason not to. It's much more user friendly not to mention more compatible with a wider variety of systems.
CoachKevin
Member
I just got to playing with my new FRAMEMEISTER last night and I was wondering what you guys considered to be the best settings going over composite for SNES/n64 etc? I did also order a SCART cable this morning.
Also I saw there was a micro sd card in the box, what is the best way to get the new firmware?
Thanks.
Also I saw there was a micro sd card in the box, what is the best way to get the new firmware?
Thanks.
IrishNinja
Member
^what firmware are you currently on? first thing to do of course is to get it displaying the menus in english!
ill dig up the #'s i got from one of the sites (i wanna say i had it in the OP) but another gaffer recently pointed out that for interlaced sources, set it to Natural, whereas Picture is good for progressive ones.
ill dig up the #'s i got from one of the sites (i wanna say i had it in the OP) but another gaffer recently pointed out that for interlaced sources, set it to Natural, whereas Picture is good for progressive ones.
s_mirage
Member
I haven't tried it with a plasma display but through the Framemeister my Megadrive and Saturn look very very close to emulation. Without the Framemeister? Not so good.
Follow the instructions here: http://junkerhq.net/xrgb/index.php/XRGB-mini_FRAMEMEISTER
If you don't have an sd card reader, apparently the mini can act as one by connecting it to a PC via a USB cable.
Hero of Legend
Member
I guess there's no cheap option (like $100 range)? Why must they make these so damn expensive.
They should have HDTV's that do these by default. A simple pixel-doubling function making 480p become four-pixel 960p (you know what I mean) with boarders to make up the remaining pixels in 1080p would be heavenly.
They should have HDTV's that do these by default. A simple pixel-doubling function making 480p become four-pixel 960p (you know what I mean) with boarders to make up the remaining pixels in 1080p would be heavenly.
CoachKevin
Member
Thank you!
Also I settled on X2 setting. Super Famicom and N64 looks AWESOME just through composite. Can't wait to get the SCART connector.
Ban Puncher
Member
I've already got component cables for my PAL Wii and a Component to D-Terminal connector for my Framemeister, should I bother trying to source a direct Wii D-Terminal Cable or just be happy with what I have now?
CoachKevin
Member
Is there a page with the optimal settings for games going through Composite?
IrishNinja
Member
^i haven't see anyone bother with them yet, nah...id totally try them on my current/tragic NES setup, cause nothing i've done so far has made those colors look any better
BocoDragon
or, How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Realize This Assgrab is Delicious
I don't think there's really much to tweak, TBH. It mostly works out of the box, and composite is just not good enough that tweaking would really change much.
I'd set the output to 720p (because its the only mode that does scanlines right) and turn on Meister mode if you want scanlines, and Normal mode without.
If you're still unsatisfied, well.. Now you see the true nature of composite connection and why you're getting that RGB upgrade
IrishNinja
Member
did you read the links in the OP? my understanding is that this reduces latency, at the very least not adding to it. there's a bunch of #'s on this kinda thing in the first link.
are you familiar with what actual upscalers do to the image? this is not simply a scanline box, is the thing
BocoDragon
or, How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Realize This Assgrab is Delicious
I've been told that its less than a frame of lag.
Your TV is already introducing lag when it does its (bad) job at scaling, so as Irish says, this may actually reduce it.
And the point of this device is not really scanlines.... It's the scaling. Your current TV sucks at it, and makes games look worse than they were ever intended to. Its really harsh and pixelated. This scales it properly. In short, the image just looks right.
s_mirage
Member
Modern TV's typically do a piss poor job of handling SD material, and are unlikely to have great scaling chips in them. For example mine handles everything as 480i which isn't great when a lot of older consoles/computers output 240p. Also, good scalers can filter the incoming image to remove artifacts like jailbars and minor noise, and are likely to be helpful in displaying systems that are out of spec.
While there are a few issues with the Framemeister, most older consoles will look significantly cleaner and sharper through it than directly plugged into the TV.
Thanks those are 2 really good answers, I suppose that a scaler designed for low res content could also upscale via a method that might produce a more authentic look, in the same way that I might choose to upscale my pixel art using bicubic/nearest neighbour scaling?
BocoDragon
or, How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Realize This Assgrab is Delicious
As an example, here is a piece of pixel art upscaled using one method and another upscaled using a different method. I've never really noticed before, but the blurry one also seems to mute the colours
BocoDragon
or, How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Realize This Assgrab is Delicious
It's hard for me to say that this is exactly 1:1 analogy, because I wouldn't say that it's just an issue of sharp vs soft... The Framemeister image actually looks sharp too. But I can't claim to know exactly why TV scalers suck and Framemeister scalers look right. It could be just like your analogy, I'm not sureAs an example, here is a piece of pixel art upscaled using one method and another upscaled using a different method. I've never really noticed before, but the blurry one also seems to mute the colours
s_mirage
Member
The Framemeister can look sharp or soft depending on the settings you choose (it's pretty sharp by default). If you like you can actually take an RGB input but make it to do a pretty good impersonation of composite minus the rainbow artifacts and edge crawl. For some games on the Megadrive/Genesis that can actually be useful as the graphics were intended to be seen with composite blending (Star Cruiser and Eternal Champions, I'm looking at you).
IrishNinja
Member
my answers are golden~
i feel like i have a grasp on what those 2 are but could you give specifics? also any pics showing the composite blending thing, im not familiar with it
i feel like i have a grasp on what those 2 are but could you give specifics? also any pics showing the composite blending thing, im not familiar with it
Shadow Hog
Member
Rainbow artifacts (banding):
Edge (dot) crawl:
Composite blending:
I think?
Edge (dot) crawl:
Composite blending:
Here's an even more interesting example, I think.
Pitfall makes heavy use of a dithering effect to give the impression of solid colors. When viewed via a composite connection the end result was smooth color patterns while an RGB connection reveals the heavy dithering used to deliver such shades.
So many games from this era were designed to be viewed through a "fuzzy lens", so to speak, which helped to eliminate visual flaws. Donkey Kong Country looked unbelievable on a CRT via composite but, as displays became capable of resolving greater detail, the effect was shattered.
RGB - Composite
I think?
while i wait for my XRGB mini to arrive, i started thinking about how to change my setup to accomodate it.
while thinking about this, i realized i have no way of plugging the GC and Wii to the XRGB mini since i only have component cables for these.
my current setup has both consoles plugged to a Yamaha receiver that then goes to the TV and is plugged with HDMI, meaning that the receiver is converting the signal from component to HDMI on the way.
my question is if plugging the HDMI out from the receiver to the XRGB would get me the same results as using different cables. also, it would be interesting to know if these receivers add to the input lag or not.
while thinking about this, i realized i have no way of plugging the GC and Wii to the XRGB mini since i only have component cables for these.
my current setup has both consoles plugged to a Yamaha receiver that then goes to the TV and is plugged with HDMI, meaning that the receiver is converting the signal from component to HDMI on the way.
my question is if plugging the HDMI out from the receiver to the XRGB would get me the same results as using different cables. also, it would be interesting to know if these receivers add to the input lag or not.
Shadow Hog
Member
They probably would add lag. Why not just get a component-to-D-Terminal cable, and use the D-Terminal port on the XRGB for your component needs?
IrishNinja
Member
ah, thank you shadow hog! and damn @ that zelda dungeon, that's...i dont know if i could play with that nowadays
again though, d-terminal to component cables arent expensive or rare, so you've that option...offhand i don't think ive ever seen or heard anything about HDMI causing that since it's the same signal regardless...wait, you're doing this with a converter, yeah? if that's the case (as i imagine it) i can say that i have my DC that way, VGA to HDMI powered converter then that HDMI into the XRGB (which strangely has several HDMI's but only one component...), and having just tested out Samba de Amigo the other day i can say i didn't notice any real input lag. for me, since its VGA going throughout i have to bear in mind the need for separate audio cables, but i imagine you've got that sorted with your setup.
mind you, not to say there's 0 lag there, but for me if i can play a rhythm game and don't notice it, that's great by me
again though, d-terminal to component cables arent expensive or rare, so you've that option...offhand i don't think ive ever seen or heard anything about HDMI causing that since it's the same signal regardless...wait, you're doing this with a converter, yeah? if that's the case (as i imagine it) i can say that i have my DC that way, VGA to HDMI powered converter then that HDMI into the XRGB (which strangely has several HDMI's but only one component...), and having just tested out Samba de Amigo the other day i can say i didn't notice any real input lag. for me, since its VGA going throughout i have to bear in mind the need for separate audio cables, but i imagine you've got that sorted with your setup.
mind you, not to say there's 0 lag there, but for me if i can play a rhythm game and don't notice it, that's great by me
the receiver takes care of the audio so there would be no problems in that since it comes before the XRGB.
it would be good to have everything work well with the least new components for me since i have to import everything, even the smallest converters because you can't find anything like that in my country easily (and the amount of gas wasted driving around would cover the shipping it'd take to import)
once i get the XRGB, it is going to be an interesting week testing all the different setups.
it would be good to have everything work well with the least new components for me since i have to import everything, even the smallest converters because you can't find anything like that in my country easily (and the amount of gas wasted driving around would cover the shipping it'd take to import)
once i get the XRGB, it is going to be an interesting week testing all the different setups.
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