Support NeoGAF

[Loomy]

They don't represent Japan culture , they are insulting them
1- portraying a black guy as a samurai
2- allow you to destruct temples
3- making Japanese people of that era gay lesbian and none binary
4-making one of the most influenced woman in Japan who had been loyal to her husband a cheater and with who ! Yasuke
Last the game looks more Chinese than japanese
You aren't going to know better than japanese themselves about their culture and history

You really think gay/lesbian/androgenous people are a 21st century thing? You really think homosexuality wasn't a thing in Japan at the time? You really don't think samurai were brokeback mountain-ing? You really going to make me pull out receipts?

 

[seb85]

Then you dont seem to understand the concept of choice in an rpg.

This isn't a fantasy rpg , it based on historical figures with a fictional story but there are limit to what you can represent in your game when you decide to go with real historical figures or historical culture

 

[MMaRsu]

This isn't a fantasy rpg , it based on historical figures with a fictional story but there are limit to what you can represent in your game when you decide to go with real historical figures or historical culture

Its fiction. Pure fiction.

If you dont understand that I dont know what to tell you.

 

[MMaRsu]

but there are limit to what you can represent in your game when you decide to go with real historical figures or historical culture

What limits

Who decided the limits

Why are there limits to a fictional story

 

[seb85]

What limits

Who decided the limits

Why are there limits to a fictional story

Limit in terms of culture respect. Why do you think Japan prime minister himself complained about the destruction of temples in the game

 

[PeteBull]

As a guy from poland i fully understand my japanese bros, ubi devs aka french canadians still suffer from some kind of mental problems(white man guilt? serves them well for colonising half of africa) and they put in black protag in feudal japan, not some side character thats meaningless but protag that changes the history.
Its crazy disgrace and ubi deserves to be punished for it, game gonna perform well below expectactions.
To our american bros thinking how come- imagine Luke Cage in the middle of harlem being white ginger skinny effeminate dude instead of this one we got:


Think of it ubi making luke cage game, in the middle of harlem and he is played by mashinegun kelly:

Yasuke in traditional samurai armor looks extremly historically inacurate:

https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQPwf-TiEH5oit8AhPCdM9_cbtvdHBgUorswA&s

It looks just as artocious as black german soldiers in ww1, which battlefield1 did
Or black german nazi soldiers in ww2 that cod vanguard did, or female soldiers on the frontline(while we know it was only female sniper units on the soviet side, aka no close combat).

Wokeism, feminism and political correctness newer makes game better, for some its neutral, for most it makes games worse.

 

[MMaRsu]

Limit in terms of culture respect. Why do you think Japan prime minister himself complained about the destruction of temples in the game

Who cares about some dusty old fools in government? You want governments to dictaten what is okay in games and not? You welcome censorship?

Oh no, you can slash some tables, Heresy!!!

You can make whatever you want to make and you should be free to do so.

I disagree with your statement.

 

[Gaiff]

They don't represent Japan culture , they are insulting them
1- portraying a black guy as a samurai

If you think that’s insulting Japanese culture…

 

[PeteBull]

Waa waa waa waa

all i hear is a baby crying

Kinda sad u cant comprehend basic human emotions like empathy, but u do u bro, better buy some srs amount of AC:S copies to make sure game doesnt bomb

 

[Astray]

We're starting to lose the plot of the thread. Twentyone reviews on that Amazon listing. Only 3 from verified purchases. The 3 are very positive. One of the other 18 said the game is so shocking it made them nauseous and almost faint.

So %100 trolls lmao.

 

[Lethal01]

Difference being that Ubisoft and their marketing gaslights everyone that goes against their game with their viewpoint. And doubled down on their 'research' as historically accurate, for months even after criticisms. They pretty much asked for this.

Ubisoft has said every assassins creed game triess to be historically accurate and at time can even be used for education.
they have never stated the game was a retelling of history. "We did our research" usually has more to do with getting the archetecture and plantation right than whatever it is people try to make it out to be.

Ghost of tsushima made the same claims while obviously having just as many innacuracies and fiction.

 

[MMaRsu]

Kinda sad u cant comprehend basic human emotions like empathy, but u do u bro, better buy some srs amount of AC:S copies to make sure game doesnt bomb

Its just so pathetic dude. Empathy for who, the poster who feels like japan is insulated?

Im sure Japan has never made a game about a different religion or culture that was all 100% true and nothing hurtful.

Fuck off.

Do you all want to wear the clown shoes or?

Do we all want that everything must be 100% respectful now? In every game everyone must be 100% respected.

Lmao get ready for the most boring games ever.

Its also pathetic how people suddenly want interference from governments to tell them what they can and cannot consume.

 

[Black_Stride]

They don't represent Japan culture , they are insulting them
1- portraying a black guy as a samurai
2- allow you to destruct temples
3- making Japanese people of that era gay lesbian and none binary
4-making one of the most influenced woman in Japan who had been loyal to her husband a cheater and with who ! Yasuke
Last the game looks more Chinese than japanese
You aren't going to know better than japanese themselves about their culture and history

• Its a work of fiction inspired by history........we fight the fucking Pope in Assassins Creed 2. (take the mask off)
• Are you assuming gay people only popped up in recent times?....If you dont want to sex gay people then dont, its an option not a mandate.
• Temple furniture is no longer destroyable cept for the procedurally added objects (They have no religious context) "Thanks Japan"
• Which of Nobunagas wives or concubines do you speak of?
• The mats are shaped more like Chinese mats than Japanese mats.....woe is me....woe is me!!!!

What makes you think I haven't played any Assassin's Creed games?

Seems like an easy way to just dismiss what I'm saying without actually engaging with the points I'm bringing up.

Cuz you would know that killing innocent people leads to game over otherwise.
You posit your argument that a black guy is going around killing civilians as if its part of the gameplay loop, its literally a fast way to desync.
You would know this if you had played an Assassins Creed game.
I also surmise you havent played this game because you would also know that its almost entirely Naoes story, with Yasuke being a supporting character, who doesnt even play like an Assassin.....hell he doesnt even have a hidden blade.

Im not dismissing your points, im fully rebutting them because your argument is in bad faith and doesnt represent what the game is.
Yasuke isnt going around just killing people randomly, the game actively punishes you for doing so.
You also dont HAVE to play as Yasuke for the vast vast vast majority of the game, if you have such issue with a black guy killing, then dont play the black guy.

 

[The artful mincer]

Development cost / (MSRP - production cost).

What's your source?

 

[Loomy]

So %100 trolls lmao.

Pretty much. Trolls or bots making the laziest, most predictable posts. Leading to this outrage.

 

[PeteBull]

If you think that’s insulting Japanese culture…

Its biig time insulting, they could add yasuke as a 3rd option/dlc character and no1 would bat an eye, but main protag instead of proper history accurate japan male... thats like spitting in their face.

 

[Buggy Loop]

Ninja gaiden was totally historically accurate, the shrines and everything. That’s why they didn’t make a fuss back then.

 

[Gaiff]

Its biig time insulting, they could add yasuke as a 3rd option/dlc character and no1 would bat an eye, but main protag instead of proper history accurate japan male... thats like spitting in their face.

No, it isn’t. I also meant that making a black man a samurai isn’t insulting to Japanese culture.

 

[pasterpl]

They don't represent Japan culture , they are insulting them
1- portraying a black guy as a samurai
2- allow you to destruct temples
3- making Japanese people of that era gay lesbian and none binary
4-making one of the most influenced woman in Japan who had been loyal to her husband a cheater and with who ! Yasuke
Last the game looks more Chinese than japanese
You aren't going to know better than japanese themselves about their culture and history

Homosexuality in Japan - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Japan's pre-modern society was one that not only tolerated homosexuality and bisexuality, but celebrated and even idealized it. In fact, it appeared to be the rule, rather than the exception, for a majority of Japan's pre-modern history.

The Gay of the Samurai

Homosexuality was quite common among Japanese samurai and Buddhist monks. Explore the history of homosexuality in Japan.

www.tofugu.com

And just to add, this is/never was advertised as 100% historically accurate game/presentation. Not sure why people are not getting that this is a game it is not historical documentary movie/book/essay that claims that it is 100% accurate.

 

[Mr Moose]

Ass of Can Whooping targeting the game in Japan.

 

[DrFigs]

Samurai Champloo had an episode about a gay samurai. Was that also bigotted against Japanese?

edit: damn nvm, it turns out i misremembered the episode. i looked it up and the gay guy from the episode was from Holland .there were no gay Japanese in samurai times, sorry.

 

[MMaRsu]

Samurai Champloo had an episode about a gay samurai. Was that also bigotted against Japanese?

Very, an insult to all japanese

 

[San Dan Glokta]

Odyssey and Valhalla were both financial successes, and fans of the series are loving Shadows. My guess is this game will do just fine.

This is really a non-statement. Clearly there are many AC fans that are not buying this game; including myself, but people will say because you didn't buy Shadows means you're not a fan.

 

[Fabieter]

Does anyone remember this? I like Japan but I think they got social engineered to hate on this game.

 

[PeteBull]

Its just so pathetic dude. Empathy for who, the poster who feels like japan is insulated?

Im sure Japan has never made a game about a different religion or culture that was all 100% true and nothing hurtful.

Fuck off.

Do you all want to wear the clown shoes or?

Do we all want that everything must be 100% respectful now? In every game everyone must be 100% respected.

Lmao get ready for the most boring games ever.

Its also pathetic how people suddenly want interference from governments to tell them what they can and cannot consume.

There were plenty times Ubi could put black protag into mainline entry, ac3, ac4(with so many black slaves living in those areas durning that time), even ac5 aka unity since it happened in france, by then france had so many colonies in africa too, hell even ac6 aka origins that happens in africa-egypt, but no, they had to do it in ac:s, which means they thought asian/japanese man wasnt masculine enough, and numerous japanese samurais, hystorically confirmed with crazy amount of all kinds of feats werent good enough, they had to give away to DEI and make black dude masacre tousands of japanese ppl instead...

 

[Loomy]

This is really a non-statement. Clearly there are many AC fans that are not buying this game; including myself, but people will say because you didn't buy Shadows means you're not a fan.

There are many fans who didn't buy Valhalla because they didn't like Odyssey. That game still made over $1b according to Ubisoft.

 

[The artful mincer]

Well, work on AC: Shadows started sometime around October of 2018. (So around 6+ years of dev time).

The main studio working on AC: Shadows is Ubisoft Quebec, which has roughly around 600 employees. But as many as 17 different studios actually worked on the game. With an average salary $75k (being conservative here), salary alone for just this one studio would be $270M.

Experts estimate the development cost to be around $250M - $350M.

Ubisoft doesn't make $80 per copy sold, as Microsoft, Sony, Steam take 30% of the revenue when sold on their platform. At $56 per copy sold, it would take 6 million copies sold to make around $336M. Which still isn't break even if the upper limit of $350M of dev costs is to be believed.

When you add in marketing costs, other expenses and the salary of other studios for the time that they spent helping develop AC: Shadows, the actual costs are probably much much higher. It wouldn't surprise me if the break even point is actually around 10M copies sold.

ALOT of assumptions there but I appreciate the analysis.

Remember the unconfirmed spider-man 2 break even number included cuts sent to Disney which won't apply to this game.

Rumor and speculation has inflated game budgets a lot over the years with not much concrete info.

E.g. the old marketing doubles development costs came from a single speculative article about GTA5.

The same Sony leak suggested that marketing budgets are about 20 to 25 million dollars. A lot to be sure but a far cry from doubling development costs.

 

[Black_Stride]

This isn't a fantasy rpg , it based on historical figures with a fictional story but there are limit to what you can represent in your game when you decide to go with real historical figures or historical culture

I take it you are new to Assassins Creed then?

 

[MMaRsu]

There were plenty times Ubi could put black protag into mainline entry, ac3, ac4(with so many black slaves living in those areas durning that time), even ac5 aka unity since it happened in france, by then france had so many colonies in africa too, hell even ac6 aka origins that happens in africa-egypt, but no, they had to do it in ac:s, which means they thought asian/japanese man wasnt masculine enough, and numerous japanese samurais, hystorically confirmed with crazy amount of all kinds of feats werent good enough, they had to give away to DEI and make black dude masacre tousands of japanese ppl instead...

Who cares bro

Oh no a black man must be dei

 

[PeteBull]

No, it isn’t. I also meant that making a black man a samurai isn’t insulting to Japanese culture.

I look at it from polish perspective, same way like japanese ppl, we polish ppl didnt colonise africa, no1 had black slaves here and profited from them(slaves were called peons and were white just like every1 else) so i dont have that white man guilt complex many westerners have, we dont owe black ppl shit, hell avg black person in the west is richer and has more opportunities now from me, avg polish guy...

Ubi made game in feudal japan, where there were no black ppl and no black samurais, and yet they decided japanese man isnt good enough to be protag, thats shameful af and shows ubi's true colors, they are racists af.

 

[PeteBull]

Who cares bro

Oh no a black man must be dei

DEI is forced diversifity, which AC:S is stellar example of, i got 0 problems with black ppl/black protags, but in time/place where they are believable, which feudal japan isnt.

 

[San Dan Glokta]

There are many fans who didn't buy Valhalla because they didn't like Odyssey. That game still made over $1b according to Ubisoft.

I think Covid really helped boost its sales by a lot, and didn't sour a significant segment of potential buyers unlike Shadows. I personally thought it was a mess but whatever.

Over the multiple controversies that irked me I'm voting with my wallet here and so are many others, we'll see what the end results will be in a few months time.

 

[MMaRsu]

DEI is forced diversifity, which AC:S is stellar example of, i got 0 problems with black ppl/black protags, but in time/place where they are believable, which feudal japan isnt.

But he was there. Its been proven time and time again.

So you do have a problem with the black protag.

 

[Metnut]

Japan is still very relevant as developers of great games but as consumers that market isn’t really crucial anymore.

 

[vodka-bull]

What's your source?

For development costs? A quick google search will spit it out, it‘s estimated between 250 and 350 million + around 100 million in marketing. Ubisoft won‘t give us exact numbers though.

And yes I do hope it‘s a financial loss. Maybe then Ubisoft will rethink about the Ubisoft formula.

 

[killatopak]

I think the ramifications of this will extend beyond this game. Ubisoft is kinda cooked in Japan. I doubt their games in the future will sell as much as before in the Japanese market.

People only hyper-fixating on AC:Shadows are only looking at it on the short term.

Collabs with Mario Rabbids stuff that are cross publisher are donezo.

 

[MMaRsu]

I think the ramifications of this will extend beyond this game. Ubisoft is kinda cooked in Japan. I doubt their games in the future will sell as much as before in the Japanese market.

People only hyper-fixating on AC:Shadows are only looking at it on the short term.

Well yeah Ubisoft wasnt going to be suddenly saved if this game was a massive hit. They still have a lot of issues and problems

 

[Gaiff]

I think the ramifications of this will extend beyond this game. Ubisoft is kinda cooked in Japan. I doubt their games in the future will sell as much as before in the Japanese market.

People only hyper-fixating on AC:Shadows are only looking at it on the short term.

Collabs with Mario Rabbids stuff that are cross publisher are donezo.

Did AC ever sell in Japan anyway?

The last part is rubbish.

 

[killatopak]

The last part is rubbish

I feel attacked. I enjoyed them

Dunno about AC but Far Cry has a pretty good following there due to streamers.

 

[saintjules]

 

[Filben]

When had we ever had a culture so pissed off about their representation in a historical inspired work of fiction? Japanese people really seem butthurt about this.

Wasn't there something with Ghost of Tsushima as well but instead of Japanese it was Mongolian people?

 

[Gonzito]

DEI is forced diversifity, which AC:S is stellar example of, i got 0 problems with black ppl/black protags, but in time/place where they are believable, which feudal japan isnt.

To be honest, I really thought it that way in the beginning, but when you play the game, you realize that the plot is very similar to the one in Shogun, Yasuke is basically a prisoner slave and Nobunaga likes him because he is strong, he sees a warrior in his eyes. That's why he becomes his ally and then a samurai. This happened with the movie The Last Samurai as well, but nobody complained about this because Tom Cruise is white. Honestly I believe there is a bit if racism involved in this situation even if its involuntary

So far I have not seen anything that screams DEI while playing the game. Yasuke is well integrated in the story in my opinion, otherwise I would've mentioned this somewhere here. I never bite my tongue when it comes to opinions

I think this goes to show that radicalism is always poisoning when it comes to politics. At first I was on board with people complaining about wokism because I could see that this is bad for games. But as a result of this, now any sign of DEI is already judged without giving it a chance and that leads to a situation where people might be unfair to certain games just because of appearances

And to be honest, right now I can see that the people that was against wokism they were just grifters because if you see their content, its all negativity and clickbait. There is no conversation or middle ground, just hatred. I dont want that for gaming either

 

[Black_Stride]

DEI is forced diversifity, which AC:S is stellar example of, i got 0 problems with black ppl/black protags, but in time/place where they are believable, which feudal japan isnt.

Ubi made game in feudal japan, where there were no black ppl and no black samurais, and yet they decided japanese man isnt good enough to be protag, thats shameful af and shows ubi's true colors, they are racists af.

DEI(A) stands for Diversity, Equity, Inclusion, Accessibility......it doesnt mean forced diversity or whatever......but i guess just like Woke got colonized imma guess DEI(A) has also been colonized to mean something else entirely.



Note. Yasuke is an actual historical figure he was black and was in feudal japan.
Was he a Samurai who knows who cares......was Pope Alexander VI super powered who knows who cares....did Napoleon hypnotize his enemies with ancient aliens tech who knows who cares.

This story plays out not dissimilarly to many other fish out of water stories including Japanese white Samurai stories.
The real beef seems to be Yasuke being black.

 

[MMaRsu]

To be honest, I really thought it that way in the beginning, but when you play the game, you realize that the plot is very similar to the one in Shogun, Yasuke is basically a prisoner slave and Nobunaga likes him because he is strong, he sees a warrior in his eyes. That's why he becomes his ally and then a samurai. This happened with the movie The Last Samurai as well, but nobody complained about this because Tom Cruise is white. Honestly I believe there is a bit if racism involved in this situation even if its involuntary

So far I have not seen anything that screams DEI while playing the game. Yasuke is well integrated in the story in my opinion, otherwise I would've mentioned this somewhere here. I never bite my tongue when it comes to opinions

I think this goes to show that radicalism is always poisoning when it comes to politics. At first I was on board with people complaining about wokism because I could see that this is bad for games. But as a result of this, now any sign of DEI is already judged without giving it a chance and that leads to a situation where people might be unfair to certain games just because of appearances

And to be honest, right now I can see that the people that was against wokism they were just grifters because if you see their content, its all negativity and clickbait. There is no conversation or middle ground, just hatred. I dont want that for gaming either

 

[Gaiff]

Honestly I believe there is a bit if racism involved in this situation even if its involuntary

A bit? Involuntarily? I wish I had your trust in humanity.

 

[San Dan Glokta]

I look at it from polish perspective, same way like japanese ppl, we polish ppl didnt colonise africa, no1 had black slaves here and profited from them(slaves were called peons and were white just like every1 else) so i dont have that white man guilt complex many westerners have, we dont owe black ppl shit, hell avg black person in the west is richer and has more opportunities now from me, avg polish guy...

Ubi made game in feudal japan, where there were no black ppl and no black samurais, and yet they decided japanese man isnt good enough to be protag, thats shameful af and shows ubi's true colors, they are racists af.

This also a valid point. The whole western baggage of white guilt/colonization history/black slavery is exhausting. Most people around the world have gone through slavery/indentured servitude at point in their ancestry. Tribalism exists between different races living in the same country yes but it's not really a big deal.

Case in point: These developers from Quebec would *never* even conceive an AC game set in Niger or Congo or something with a Caucasian or Asian foreigner good guy protagonist that's pretty much royalty like Yasuke, even if it actually happened historically.

 

[pasterpl]

I look at it from polish perspective, same way like japanese ppl, we polish ppl didnt colonise africa, no1 had black slaves here and profited from them(slaves were called peons and were white just like every1 else) so i dont have that white man guilt complex many westerners have, we dont owe black ppl shit, hell avg black person in the west is richer and has more opportunities now from me, avg polish guy...

Ubi made game in feudal japan, where there were no black ppl and no black samurais, and yet they decided japanese man isnt good enough to be protag, thats shameful af and shows ubi's true colors, they are racists af.

It seems that there was black samurai in feudal Japan. Same as it was quite common for samurai to be gay/bi.

Yasuke (Japanese: 弥助 / 弥介, pronounced [jasɯ̥ke]) was a samurai of African origin who served Oda Nobunagabetween 1581 and 1582, during the Sengoku period, until Nobunaga's death.[2][3][4][5]

According to historical accounts, Yasuke first arrived in Japan in the service of Italian Jesuit Alessandro Valignano. Nobunaga summoned him out of a desire to see a black man.[6]Subsequently, Nobunaga took him into his service and gave him the name Yasuke. As a samurai, he was granted a sword, a house and a stipend.[3][7][8] Yasuke accompanied Nobunaga until his death and fought at the Honnō-ji Incident until the death of Oda Nobutada. Afterwards, Yasuke was sent back to the Jesuits.[9] There are no subsequent records of his life.

Yasuke - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[PeteBull]

But he was there. Its been proven time and time again.

So you do have a problem with the black protag.

So ubi could do proper diligence and represent asian male as a samurai, which 99,999999% were, or fuck up and claim yasuke was samurai, and they chose him instead.
Its like they would do slave plantation simulation and decided protag not gonna be black slave, but that extremly rare poor white man that got enslaved coz of debts... hypocrysy is crazy here.

Btw, yosuke had black privilege in japan, according to wiki, his life was spared coz he wasnt japanese

Yasuke - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

On the same day, after his lord's death, Yasuke joined the forces of Nobutada, Nobunaga's eldest son and heir, who was garrisoned at the nearby Nijō-goshō imperial villa. They fought against the Akechi clan but were overwhelmed. Yasuke was captured by Mitsuhide's vassals, then sent to the Jesuits by Mitsuhide who suggested that because Yasuke was not Japanese, his life should be spared.[1][36]

Which means where his brothers in arms got defeated by overwhelming force, only yasuke, and only coz of being black, got spared- so others were killed/slaughtered, he got sent back to jesuits, like a lil bitch, unworthy of samurai's name, a coward, a disgrace...

 

[Gaiff]

It seems that there was black samurai in feudal Japan. Same as it was quite common for samurai to be gay/bi.

Yasuke - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Him having been samurai isn’t factual. It’s a debated question.

 

[Loomy]

To be honest, I really thought it that way in the beginning, but when you play the game, you realize that the plot is very similar to the one in Shogun, Yasuke is basically a prisoner slave and Nobunaga likes him because he is strong, he sees a warrior in his eyes. That's why he becomes his ally and then a samurai. This happened with the movie The Last Samurai as well, but nobody complained about this because Tom Cruise is white. Honestly I believe there is a bit if racism involved in this situation even if its involuntary

So far I have not seen anything that screams DEI while playing the game. Yasuke is well integrated in the story in my opinion, otherwise I would've mentioned this somewhere here. I never bite my tongue when it comes to opinions

I think this goes to show that radicalism is always poisoning when it comes to politics. At first I was on board with people complaining about wokism because I could see that this is bad for games. But as a result of this, now any sign of DEI is already judged without giving it a chance and that leads to a situation where people might be unfair to certain games just because of appearances

And to be honest, right now I can see that the people that was against wokism they were just grifters because if you see their content, its all negativity and clickbait. There is no conversation or middle ground, just hatred. I dont want that for gaming either

See, the difference is you actually played the game and are basing your opinion on first hand experience.

To your last comment: I was reading something - on reddit, I think it was - where someone said something like "Imagine if you weren't online all the time, and just walked into a store, saw a cool looking box art, and bought the game without knowing any of the controversy around it. Chances are you'd enjoy it because it's a good game" and I think that's what we're losing with all this.

This is, from steam reviews and talking to friends, a good game. Not a perfect game, but a good AC game.