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[Regulus Tera]

Any top ten numbers for each individual console already?

The Wii does not need a price cut.

They are on the verge of a huge software release (Resort). That alone will push the system back into it's usual numbers. They are probably looking forward to squeezing one last Christmas in at 249$.

Most definitely. Wii Fit Plus and New Super Mario Bros. Wii will easily keep up the momentum from Wii Sports Resort.

 

[Arpharmd B]

I don't think it was fair for IGN to attribute failure of the Bionic Commando downloadable game to attract buyers for the retail version. It came out last year after all. Had Capcom delayed the BC downloadable till about one month before BC retail came out, I think there would have been a much better result.

I don't want to shit on the game but, Capcom has a huge following in general. If the game is good, it will sell. Lost Planet didn't really have advertising, it was a brand new IP, but people played and LIKED the demo, and that created buzz.

I'm sorry but IMO BC isn't even on the level of B-List 3rd and 1st person 360 shooters. There is just way more and better to choose from, and everyone knows it.

My final thought is also, developers should realize a game is not going to sell simply off the backs of an IP that enjoyed mild popularity 10 to 15 years ago. We all have fond memories of Golden Axe and Bionic Commando, but those are two really good examples of how that alone will not translate into sales. I'd bring in Punch Out, but comparitively speaking, Punch-Out did phenominally compared to the two I just mentioned. People here consider Punchouts numbers luke warm at best.

Someone will surely interject and tell me "bu bu but there was nothing else to play in early 07" to which I will say, Gears of War hit 2 months prior and was the same style of game yet Lost Planet still went on to sell boatloads. My point being, if the game is good, it will sell. Bionic Commando just didn't click with people. No amount of advertising was going to save the game after we all played that demo.

 

[Shurs]

That still doesn't answer what technical advantage the HD twins offer for a shooter over the Wii other than better graphics. I'm still waiting to hear a real answer to this. People can claim AI but I personally haven't played a game yet where I've gone fuck that AI is amazing, it all seems like the same shit to me. People claim physics but has rag doll physics actually made a change in gameplay?

This fall I'll be able to play an FPS online with 255 other dudes. This opens up new gameplay scenarios that cannot be replicated on the Wii. I'm not saying whether the content will be good or not but that is one unique gameplay scenario.

 

[Version 3.0]

That still doesn't answer what technical advantage the HD twins offer for a shooter over the Wii other than better graphics. I'm still waiting to hear a real answer to this. People can claim AI but I personally haven't played a game yet where I've gone fuck that AI is amazing, it all seems like the same shit to me. People claim physics but has rag doll physics actually made a change in gameplay?

I agree about the AI, but I have to tell you, rag doll physics give me all sorts of fun. I'm endlessly amused by corpses sticking to my feet, clipping through walls, and so on.

On the other hand, some last gen games had perfectly decent rag doll physics. Metroid Prime had great rag doll (check out the color-coded space pirates). So you can do that on the Wii, too.

I agree with you: FPS games are same-old same-old this gen, except for the couple of decent Wii-controlled ones. IR is the real advancement.

 

[Kittonwy]

I don't think it was fair for IGN to attribute failure of the Bionic Commando downloadable game to attract buyers for the retail version. It came out last year after all. Had Capcom delayed the BC downloadable till about one month before BC retail came out, I think there would have been a much better result.

I wonder what Ben Judd is going to do now, although it doesn't seem like the game itself is particularly great or anything.

 

[LM4sure]

COD4 isn't 720p and no other shooters on PS360 are 60fps. The PC is the only place to get high definition shooters with smooth framerates.

:lol

the guy doesn't even have his facts straight

 

[sonicmj1]

And why do they think they will sell there? Because many other games in the same genre came before them and sold well. That's how ecosystems are built. The Wii had an FPS at launch that sold well (Red Steel), but for some reason no one followed suit. Even the Red Steel developers have been slow to follow up.

And are we endorsing moneyhats here, e.g. paying for advertising etc?

Moneyhats may have helped.

Third parties aren't convinced that those sorts of games can sell on the Wii. Since no company has proven otherwise, people will continue to stick with their spinoffs and cautious probes into the core area, which at least have succeeded occasionally.

One would have expected Red Steel to be a start, looking at the numbers, but I suspect Ubi was struck by the poor critical response, and as a result felt cautious about trying again.

If Nintendo were able to make a developer take that risk with the aid of some moneyhats, they could have engineered that breakout success that would drag third parties along, if such a thing were possible. Instead, they have been equally reluctant. One can look at Fatal Frame IV to get some idea of how much Nintendo trusts their third-party partnerships to succeed. They aren't even localizing it.

Such monetary encouragement wouldn't have necessarily succeeded, but if Nintendo doesn't grease the wheel a bit, nobody else has any real incentive to.

 

[Shin Johnpv]

Online, community, and you can't downplay the graphics. The precision and clarity that something like COD4 in 720p at 60fps offers just can't be discounted.

Ehhh PC games do online better. XBL is a step in the right direction, but limits to friends list and paying 50 bucks a year is still bullshit. That precision is completely fucking shot when you have to use dual analogs to aim. Plus 720p? I could have sworn COD4 wasn't rendering at 720p, and I'm pretty sure most games on the 360 aren't 60fps. Plus I've been gaming on the PC at a lot higher resolution than that. Why aren't all these devs pushing the PC more, since it offers a much clearer technical advantage over the PS360?

Online could be better on the Wii, and you're starting to see people use FC that are already registered on your system for online games as opposed to having a FC for each game. Hopefully more developers pick that up.

A lot of those "technical" advantages go away too when people don't have the proper set up. No HDTV (which is still the majority of America) and HD doesn't mean jack shit. No broadband (which I'd say the majority of America must have by now) and online/community don't matter either.

 

[Kittonwy]

That still doesn't answer what technical advantage the HD twins offer for a shooter over the Wii other than better graphics. I'm still waiting to hear a real answer to this. People can claim AI but I personally haven't played a game yet where I've gone fuck that AI is amazing, it all seems like the same shit to me. People claim physics but has rag doll physics actually made a change in gameplay?

It's not the same shit, even on PS3 and 360 there are games that have noticibly better AI, that and bigger levels with more nuances and complexity, and more players are supported online, and it makes quite a difference.

 

[Arpharmd B]

I wonder what Ben Judd is going to do now, although it doesn't seem like the game itself is particularly great or anything.

If anything comes out of this mess, it'll hopefully curb the whole trend of ressurecting B-Grade, ancient IP for new games that strip away all the personality and greatness of said classics. Capcom missed the memo about Final Fight Streetwise and Golden Axe Beastrider.

 

[poppabk]

The biggest advantages are online and community features.

These are software not hardware based though (at least for Wii level of hardware).

 

[FrankT]

There was a semi-price drop on the 360 in August.

Actually that occurred in July as I was fairly certain 360 was going to be on top that month. One of my other few rare occasions where I've had the dynamic wrong. The sales dynamic did not change until the next month however.

http://news.cnet.com/8301-17938_105-9985383-1.html

You are wrong.

Yea pretty certain he simply meant the month it changed back with the 360 on top and not YTD.

 

[Shin Johnpv]

I'm comparing to last gen tech. I know your precious PC is much more powerful. I don't care.

So why should any one care that the PS360 is more powerful than a Wii? Compared to the PC its all last gen tech.

Graphics is a HUGE thing. Positional sound is awesome too for those who use it.

If graphics were a HUGE thing as you claim. Then the Wii wouldn't be winning this gen, the PS2 wouldn't have won last gen, and the NES wouldn't have won it's gen. Also everyone would have a high end PC and games would be selling mostly on them.

*Edit* Also you can do PL2, PL2X on Wii. Hell RSIII on GC had it and it was one of the best Positional Sound mixes I've ever heard in a game.

The biggest advantages are online and community features.

Which with effort can be done pretty closely on Wii. While you don't get the intergration that you have say on XBL, the actual online play can be just as good. Plus if developers wise up and instead of using FC for each game they just use your system ones it makes things quite a bit easier.

 

[hulot]

No amount of advertising was going to save the game after we all played that demo.

But much of the negative buzz could have been due to that demo, which did nothing to show off the game's strengths and locked players into a rigid 5min deathmatch. Lost Planet had pre-release trailers, an E3 single-player demo debut and then later in the year two differnent multiplayer demos, one of which had a bonus preorder map to play on. And as with all Live demos, the ability to set up games with friends almost guarantees sales or at least positive impressions. Demos that don't, like BC's, simply diminish possible excitement for the game.

 

[Kittonwy]

If anything comes out of this mess, it'll hopefully curb the whole trend of ressurecting B-Grade, ancient IP for new games that strip away all the personality and greatness of said classics. Capcom missed the memo about Final Fight Streetwise and Golden Axe Beastrider.

If those IPs were so popular, they wouldn't need resurrecting, there's a reason why they weren't being tapped, not sure why some people kept asking dead IPs to be brought back and/or remaking games that never sold all that well the first go-around.

 

[sonicmj1]

If anything comes out of this mess, it'll hopefully curb the whole trend of ressurecting B-Grade, ancient IP for new games that strip away all the personality and greatness of said classics. Capcom missed the memo about Final Fight Streetwise and Golden Axe Beastrider.

The thing is, Bionic Commando is not a shitty game. It has plenty of problems, but the strength of the swing mechanics almost redeems it. Despite the bad decisions made in the development process, I don't think that this game was necessarily doomed from its announcement.

If they'd packaged it with a demo containing the swing tutorial and a single area from the mid-game, instead of the extremely inaccessible multiplayer demo, I think it would have been at least a little more likely to catch on with a small portion of the audience. The stuff they demonstrated to users almost actively inhibits them from finding the game's strengths.

 

[Arpharmd B]

But much of the negative buzz could have been due to that demo, which did nothing to show off the game's strengths and locked players into a rigid 5min deathmatch. Lost Planet had pre-release trailers, an E3 single-player demo debut and then later in the year two differnent multiplayer demos, one of which had a bonus preorder map to play on. And as with all Live demos, the ability to set up games with friends almost guarantees sales or at least positive impressions. Demos that don't, like BC's, simply diminish possible excitement for the game.

You must have misread me, because this is exactly the point of my post! The BC demo killed the game. The game could be amazing, but I wouldn't know because all I had to go by was that horrible demo. I agree with everything you are saying.

You are correct also about Lost Planet, it did get a good push, but had the demo been shit I don't think any of that promotion could have saved it. I think after the BC demo reception Capcom knew they had a dud on their hands, and just wanted to wash their hands of it. I mean, there isn't even a BC theme on marketplace. That REALLY says something.

 

[Kittonwy]

So why should any one care that the PS360 is more powerful than a Wii? Compared to the PC its all last gen tech.



If graphics were a HUGE thing as you claim. Then the Wii wouldn't be winning this gen, the PS2 wouldn't have won last gen, and the NES wouldn't have won it's gen. Also everyone would have a high end PC and games would be selling mostly on them.

*Edit* Also you can do PL2, PL2X on Wii. Hell RSIII on GC had it and it was one of the best Positional Sound mixes I've ever heard in a game.



Which with effort can be done pretty closely on Wii. While you don't get the intergration that you have say on XBL, the actual online play can be just as good. Plus if developers wise up and instead of using FC for each game they just use your system ones it makes things quite a bit easier.

Wii isn't exactly winning this gen based on the strength of the shooters on the platform, wii is winning based on the success of titles such as wii fit, wii play and wii sport, there are markets that are currently better served on the PS3 and the 360.

 

[Vinci]

Moneyhats may have helped.

They don't believe in moneyhats.

Third parties aren't convinced that those sorts of games can sell on the Wii. Since no company has proven otherwise, people will continue to stick with their spinoffs and cautious probes into the core area, which at least have succeeded occasionally.

Nintendo has proven otherwise in traditional genres. The reason no one else has is because they took a foolish approach to the system that they never would have on any other simply due to it being a Nintendo system.

If Nintendo were able to make a developer take that risk with the aid of some moneyhats, they could have engineered that breakout success that would drag third parties along, if such a thing were possible.

Nintendo isn't going to moneyhat very often, if ever. It doesn't make sense to them financially.

Instead, they have been equally reluctant. One can look at Fatal Frame IV to get some idea of how much Nintendo trusts their third-party partnerships to succeed. They aren't even localizing it.

Bad example. In fact, it does more to show why Nintendo doesn't rely on 3rd parties.

Such monetary encouragement wouldn't have necessarily succeeded, but if Nintendo doesn't grease the wheel a bit, nobody else has any real incentive to.

It helps them be relevant on the market leader and have access to a cheaper development process by which they could make lots and lots of money?

 

[Shin Johnpv]

I agree about the AI, but I have to tell you, rag doll physics give me all sorts of fun. I'm endlessly amused by corpses sticking to my feet, clipping through walls, and so on.

I got bored of Ragdoll physics really quickly. To each their own though.

I agree with you: FPS games are same-old same-old this gen, except for the couple of decent Wii-controlled ones. IR is the real advancement.

I feel like a lot of this gen is basically last gen with better graphics.

It's not the same shit, even on PS3 and 360 there are games that have noticibly better AI, that and bigger levels with more nuances and complexity, and more players are supported online, and it makes quite a difference.

Which games have noticeably better AI? I mean really noticeably, not just ohhh instead of Hide Shoot Hide its Hide shoot run to new cover Hide Shoot. Plus how much of those AI routines can't be used on the Wii? How many haven't shown up cause developers just haven't bothered?

Wii isn't exactly winning this gen based on the strength of the shooters on the platform, wii is winning based on the success of titles such as wii fit, wii play and wii sport, there are markets that are currently better served on the PS3 and the 360.

I never said Wii was winning because of the shooters on the system. I simply said graphics weren't as huge as he was making them out to be, if they were then all the systems in the past that were clearly outclassed by the other ones available and still won their gen wouldn't have.

 

[Kittonwy]

The thing is, Bionic Commando is not a shitty game. It has plenty of problems, but the strength of the swing mechanics almost redeems it. Despite the bad decisions made in the development process, I don't think that this game was necessarily doomed from its announcement.

If they'd packaged it with a demo containing the swing tutorial and a single area from the mid-game, instead of the extremely inaccessible multiplayer demo, I think it would have been at least a little more likely to catch on with a small portion of the audience. The stuff they demonstrated to users almost actively inhibits them from finding the game's strengths.

"Not a shitty game" is not exactly a great reason for people to pick up the game when there are games that might be better overall packages than BC. Obviously people have every right to pick up whatever they want even if the games in question are heavily flawed or shitty, lots of people buy games because it's a certain IP and it scored above a 3 and this is why time and time again we are still seeing shitty Sonic 3D games, BC is obviously a case where this didn't happen, is this a good thing or bad thing? I don't know but at least the sales is somewhat in line with the quality.

 

[Zinthar]

If those IPs were so popular, they wouldn't need resurrecting, there's a reason why they weren't being tapped, not sure why some people kept asking dead IPs to be brought back and/or remaking games that never sold all that well the first go-around.

This.

Gaming IP's that are relics from mildly popular games in the NES/SNES generation need to die and RIP.

Hearing the guys on 1up yours go on and on about Bionic Commando was painful. Actually, hearing them talk about Punch-out like that was as well. Great games in their time, but I just don't see the appeal of playing a puzzle fighting-game like Punch-out when there are more involving fighting experiences like UFC.

Some would say apples and oranges, but that's really my point -- if there wasn't enough appeal for the apples to be made in the past 2 decades, that's probably because everyone wants oranges now. The sales reflect that; Punch-out did pretty poorly for an old iconic Nintendo IP.

They probably will turn a very nice profit on it, but I'm glad sales aren't strong enough to get more developers into a frenzy of resurrecting the dead rather than doing something new.

 

[C- Warrior]

Resident Evil 5:
4,500,000

capcom donates surplass of moneyz to west africa

Devil May Cry 4:
2,400,000

capcom devil brings the money in

Street Fighter 4:
2,500,000

capcom fadc's money into the bank

Dead Rising:
1,500,000

capcom steals moneyz from romero

Lost Planet:
1,500,000

capcom steals money from boring get up and run animations

Bionic Commando:
30,000

Capcom goes bankrupt and dies from teh dreadlockz!


Anyway, lame jokes aside Capcom just had their first non-million seller.

Lessen learned: STOP OUTSOURCING YOUR SHIT TO UNPROVEN DEVELOPERS.
And don't release shit during the summer. Jan - March is a better 'non-competitive' time frame to release your game.

 

[Arpharmd B]

If those IPs were so popular, they wouldn't need resurrecting, there's a reason why they weren't being tapped, not sure why some people kept asking dead IPs to be brought back and/or remaking games that never sold all that well the first go-around.

Exactly.

I'm probably in the minority on this, but I do not want a new Strider made by a Western studio. And had BC been successful I think that's the direction they would have gone. Just leave me with memories of one of the greatest niche side scrolling action games ever.

Bionic Commando:
30,000

Capcom goes bankrupt and dies from teh dreadlockz!


Anyway, lame jokes aside Capcom just had their first non-million seller.

Lessen learned: STOP OUTSOURCING YOUR SHIT TO UNPROVEN DEVELOPERS.

BC probably ate all the profits from Rearmed and then some. I hate to say it but I don't think Dark Void will set the world on fire either. Just when the Capcom Japan is doing better than ever, Capcom USA decides to take it's half of the money and burn it, Joker style.

 

[Arpharmd B]

.

 

[Zinthar]

Exactly.

I'm probably in the minority on this, but I do not want a new Strider made by a Western studio. And had BC been successful I think that's the direction they would have gone. Just leave me with memories of one of the greatest niche side scrolling action games ever.

You're in the majority I think.

But the minority is VERY outspoken, is strongly tied to their early gaming memories, and demands a new Strider, Killer Instinct, or __[Insert Dead IP that won't translate well to 2009 here]____.

 

[C- Warrior]

Exactly.

I'm probably in the minority on this, but I do not want a new Strider made by a Western studio. And had BC been successful I think that's the direction they would have gone. Just leave me with memories of one of the greatest niche side scrolling action games ever.



BC probably ate all the profits from Rearmed and then some. I hate to say it but I don't think Dark Void will set the world on fire either. Just when the Capcom Japan is doing better than ever, Capcom USA decides to take it's half of the money and burn it, Joker style.

I know huh, so sad. Also, Rearmed was a 12 dollar online game, in which Capcom probably saw about -- 6 dollars worth of profit. With the other 6 going XBLA/PSN. So, assuming all said in done the game was downloaded 400,000 times -- 6 * 400,000 = 2,400,000 USD profit. That is like the cost to cover the tissue paper to wipe the tears of the developers, nothing more.

Dark Void - I've played it. And unlike Bionic Commando, is a pretty damn fun game. If not typical (cover and shoot) it's pretty, solid, good premise, and a few interesting game mechanics to seperate it from being a pure Gears of War clone.

However, I also think the name, marketing, time-frame of the game just won't sit well.

Capcom's golden period is Jan - March, RE5, DMC4, SF4, LP, DR all came out around that time (give or take) and tore shit up.

 

[sonicmj1]

They don't believe in moneyhats.

Nintendo isn't going to moneyhat very often, if ever. It doesn't make sense to them financially.

Okay. That doesn't help me very much. Let's get to the meaty stuff.

Nintendo has proven otherwise in traditional genres. The reason no one else has is because they took a foolish approach to the system that they never would have on any other simply due to it being a Nintendo system.

This is true. It's a holdover from the Gamecube and N64 days. It may not be reasonable, but for a long time, the conventional wisdom has said that only Nintendo games sell on Nintendo systems. This doesn't have to be true (in many ways, it has been proven false already), but I think it will take someone really blowing everyone away in a traditional core genre to truly break the stigma. And nobody is trying to make that game, because they're scared of risk. It may be too late at this stage.

Bad example. In fact, it does more to show why Nintendo doesn't rely on 3rd parties.

You'll need to explain this more, because I don't know everything about Fatal Frame IV. Is it just really terrible?

It helps them be relevant on the market leader and have access to a cheaper development process by which they could make lots and lots of money?

But that's true only if the game sells, and nobody thinks their games will sell on the Wii. We saw Capcom throw their money down that hole trying to make the Gamecube healthier last generation. Without faith that their games will sell, it's a risky thing to do.

If third parties are going to commit to the Wii in the way that they have committed to its rival platforms, someone needs to prove, beyond all doubt, that the Wii is a viable platform for the kinds of games that people now bring only to the 360 and PS3. If Nintendo believes this is possible, and nobody else does, then they have to be the ones to take the step and drag the third parties there themselves, because no one else will. If they're not willing to do that (perhaps because they don't even believe it's possible, if they don't think doing this is financially viable), the third parties won't either, because they are under no obligation to incur a significant risk that they are convinced won't pay off.

 

[poppabk]

If anything comes out of this mess, it'll hopefully curb the whole trend of ressurecting B-Grade, ancient IP for new games that strip away all the personality and greatness of said classics. Capcom missed the memo about Final Fight Streetwise and Golden Axe Beastrider.

The thing is that the BC franchise had already been resurrected through Rearmed, they then killed it as soon as it had been resurrected successfully. The whole Wanted/BC/Terminator using almost the same engine/animations etc feels like a failed experiment in producing high production value HD games on a lower budget. Except the 20 million budget post kills that idea if true.

 

[sonicmj1]

"Not a shitty game" is not exactly a great reason for people to pick up the game when there are games that might be better overall packages than BC. Obviously people have every right to pick up whatever they want even if the games in question are heavily flawed or shitty, lots of people buy games because it's a certain IP and it scored above a 3 and this is why time and time again we are still seeing shitty Sonic 3D games, BC is obviously a case where this didn't happen, is this a good thing or bad thing? I don't know but at least the sales is somewhat in line with the quality.

This game was not going to tear up the charts, especially not in the state it was in. But I don't think the problem there was the decision to resurrect the franchise. The problem was in how the process was handled, in terms of both the poor development decisions made and some clumsy moves in how the game was presented to the public.

Maybe I'm just disappointed, because I think there was potential for a really strong game in the basic mechanics, and some solid iteration on those mechanics, combined with better all-around design, would yield something that truly deserved to be at the front of the pack.

 

[Shin Johnpv]

You're in the majority I think.

But the minority is VERY outspoken, is strongly tied to their early gaming memories, and demands a new Strider, Killer Instinct, or __[Insert Dead IP that won't translate well to 2009 here]____.

I agree and disagree with this. I think some games can have a rebirth into the current age. Look at Punch Out, the Wii version is just as good as the old school game. That said though there is no way in hell I want the current iteration of Rare to make a new Killer Instinct game. It would be awful I just know it. I think it can be done though. Specially with a game like Strider, update it bring it to the modern age but keep the spirit the same. What about a Strider done like Metroid: Other M? I think these things can be done, the problem is when they leave the spirit and essence of the old games behind. Look at the new Bionic Commando, I'm sorry but that game has nothing to do with the NES game I loved. NOTHING, well other than the guy having a grappling hook arm. That's it though. Why would I get excited for that when it takes the surface level stuff and leaves everything else behind.

 

[dammitmattt]

:lol

the guy doesn't even have his facts straight

OMG!!! Guy forgets difference in one game between 600p (or whatever) upscaled to 720p and true 720p. Let's burn him at the stake and discard all of his opinions!

---------------

The point is that the graphics are much improved over last generation, and allow developers to create levels with a sense of scale and detail that you just can't do on last gen tech. Who cares if PCs are another step ahead. That's not the point. We're talking about graphics and shooters. That's it.

And who cares if a certain percentage of gamers or America have HD or not? I do, and that's all I care about. It's such a ridiculous point to continually bring up when you're doing a straight line comparison between what is possible on last and this gen tech.

These are software not hardware based though (at least for Wii level of hardware).

Which with effort can be done pretty closely on Wii. While you don't get the intergration that you have say on XBL, the actual online play can be just as good. Plus if developers wise up and instead of using FC for each game they just use your system ones it makes things quite a bit easier.

The Wii can emulate a lot of features that are built in to the 360 (and mostly built-in to the PS3), but it's never going to be the same without real user IDs, good chat technology, and much more. You can easily get a great race in Mario Kart or a good game of team deathmatch in The Conduit, but you're never going to have the level of community features that Bungie and Insomniac offer. The Wii just isn't set up for that. It's not a knock against the Wii. It's better for local multiplayer, and developers should focus on that over online play.

 

[hulot]

You must have misread me, because this is exactly the point of my post! The BC demo killed the game. The game could be amazing, but I wouldn't know because all I had to go by was that horrible demo. I agree with everything you are saying.

I was mostly responding to the earlier part of your post in which you suggested that BC was a game that couldn't have succeeded, demo or not and that it wasn't even a 'B-list' shooter. One could've said the same for Lost Planet, considering Gears's release at the time', but a lot of its success had to do with marketing/demos and the goodwill generated by them. And LP didn't sell as much as Gears and I never expected BC to top LP but it was the way it was handled and shown to the public that was a complete disaster, not because of the game's own quality.

 

[nincompoop]

You'll need to explain this more, because I don't know everything about Fatal Frame IV. Is it just really terrible?

It's apparently filled with bugs and the Wii-specific controls are really dumb, like instead of using IR for a flashlight you waggle to switch between 3 preset heights or something.

 

[PepsimanVsJoe]

Exactly.

I'm probably in the minority on this, but I do not want a new Strider made by a Western studio. And had BC been successful I think that's the direction they would have gone. Just leave me with memories of one of the greatest niche side scrolling action games ever.

Hell I wouldn't even accept a new Strider from a Eastern studio. Capcom pretty much pissed away all of the unique qualities of Strider with the sequel(yeah I know different devs...whatever). Replace the cast of that game and slap in whoever you like and it could be one of a hundred dozen games.

Terrible month by the way.

 

[Vinci]

This is true. It's a holdover from the Gamecube and N64 days. It may not be reasonable, but for a long time, the conventional wisdom has said that only Nintendo games sell on Nintendo systems. This doesn't have to be true (in many ways, it has been proven false already), but I think it will take someone really blowing everyone away in a traditional core genre to truly break the stigma. And nobody is trying to make that game, because they're scared of risk. It may be too late at this stage.

What risk? All they had to do was fund some PS2-type games for the damn system that didn't insult its audience. That's it, a virtual drop in the bucket compared to the insane amounts of money they've invested into the PS360 combination. As I said before: Put your big AAA games that are truly benefitted by HD and online on those systems and put the more mid-tier but quality games on the Wii to cut down the costs on continuing the franchises. What they've done is provide themselves with little to no room to maneuver: It's big blockbuster that costs more than five to ten Wii games would. Sure, that one game might end up selling well - but what if it doesn't? The risk is in spending huge amounts of money with nothing but success or failure as an option, not in spreading your franchises and games around in order to create a healthy climate on all platforms.

You'll need to explain this more, because I don't know everything about Fatal Frame IV. Is it just really terrible?

Buggy, broken. I personally think they should fix it and bring it over, but ... oh well.

But that's true only if the game sells, and nobody thinks their games will sell on the Wii. We saw Capcom throw their money down that hole trying to make the Gamecube healthier last generation. Without faith that their games will sell, it's a risky thing to do.

The Wii and Gamecube, though they might share similar (if not the same) tech, are wildly different: One is selling on par to beat the PS2, while the other got its ass kicked by the PS2 handedly. FWIW, RE4 sold rather well on the GCN despite its relatively small userbase.

If third parties are going to commit to the Wii in the way that they have committed to its rival platforms, someone needs to prove, beyond all doubt, that the Wii is a viable platform for the kinds of games that people now bring only to the 360 and PS3. If Nintendo believes this is possible, and nobody else does, then they have to be the ones to take the step and drag the third parties there themselves, because no one else will. If they're not willing to do that (perhaps because they don't even believe it's possible, if they don't think doing this is financially viable), the third parties won't either, because they are under no obligation to incur a significant risk that they are convinced won't pay off.

The problem is that they're painting themselves into a corner that includes only big blockbusters that happen to hit or massive amounts of money down the drain should a game underperform. If you think this 'eggs in one basket' routine is an advisable business strategy, that's fine - but I have to say that I possess many doubts. What's the point of swimming in the reddest of the red oceans? What's the point of perpetuating a climate that only truly endorses two or three genres? The fact is, no system has a healthy library right now; everything is segmented horribly and it's because 3rd parties made some very foolish decisions right from the get-go.

Instead of creating foundations for them to succeed later, they shat on the very system that would have allowed them to pursue another several years of PS2-level development. Nintendo saw this, even warned about it, and nobody but them has truly taken advantage of this.

Understand, I'm not concerned for the Wii or Nintendo - they're both doing fine - but this gen has been severely damaging to a lot of these companies and it's because they didn't do what they'd done on previous systems. They wrapped themselves up in this idea that Nintendo consoles are completely different animals when they're not. Not at all. And by perpetuating this fallacy, they've created the very climate they felt it was - alien, unfamiliar, and confusing.

 

[Shin Johnpv]

The point is that the graphics are much improved over last generation, and allow developers to create levels with a sense of scale and detail that you just can't do on last gen tech. Who cares if PCs are another step ahead. That's not the point. We're talking about graphics and shooters. That's it.

And shooters can have better controls and better graphics on PC. I don't understand how some one can go "These genres should only be on PS360 because we can have better graphics than the Wii." and then in the same breath say "It doesn't matter that the PC can do better graphics than the PS360." Everything you're saying as a reason why these games she be focused on the PS360 over the Wii are the exact same reasons why they should be focused on PC over the PS360.

And who cares if a certain percentage of gamers or America have HD or not? I do, and that's all I care about. It's such a ridiculous point to continually bring up when you're doing a straight line comparison between what is possible on last and this gen tech.

No its not a ridiculous point. Its pretty damn valid. If the majority of your audience can't take advantage of something than it seems like a pretty weak advantage. What does it matter if the PS360 can do 720p vs the Wii's 480p if 75% of the audience is going to play everything in 480p? Sure it matters to you but it proves that to the general audience graphics aren't that big of a deal.

 

[onipex]

That is antithetical to virtually every company's philosophy in the industry. You apparently view a gap in a system's library as an opportunity to exploit; third parties almost certainly view it as a risk with no historical precedent to provide statistics and feedback.

Very few publishers are interested in blazing new trails -- as THQ put it, they are "risk averse," as Ubisoft put it, they "basically copy" -- they are interested in copying the few games that manage to break out. Wii Sports and Wii Fit are examples, and from last generation (and still going strong), Grand Theft Auto and Halo. So we get Wii Sports/Fit clones on the Wii, and FPS/Sandbox/Shooters on the 360 and PS3.

I'm not suggesting you're wrong, or that what you're saying is dumb. I'm just pointing out that this simply isn't how most companies work, and that isn't changing.

Not every company ,but most of them. I believe that some of the games you named shows what the payoff can be when a company plugs a hole with good software. Then again the Wii already has good selling software in some of the genres that 3rd parties think are a risk. Those games are listed all the time as examples that core games sell, so I find it hard to believe when THQ says that risk is the reason why.

 

[Shin Johnpv]

You'll need to explain this more, because I don't know everything about Fatal Frame IV. Is it just really terrible?

It's full of bugs that Tecmo refuses to fix. Nintendo told Tecmo they would bring it to the US and Europe if they fixed the bugs in it, Tecmo refused. I don't think you can really fault Nintendo for not wanting to bring out a faulty product.

 

[A Twisty Fluken]

They wrapped themselves up in this idea that Nintendo consoles are completely different animals when they're not. Not at all. And by perpetuating this fallacy, they've created the very climate they felt it was - alien, unfamiliar, and confusing.

Isn't it ironic, don't you think? If Wii consumers were to only trust Nintendo games here on out, can anyone really blame them?

The whole All-Play point and laugh thing was perplexing to me at the time. Way to destroy your own brand.

 

[Kilrogg]

That is antithetical to virtually every company's philosophy in the industry. You apparently view a gap in a system's library as an opportunity to exploit; third parties almost certainly view it as a risk with no historical precedent to provide statistics and feedback.

Very few publishers are interested in blazing new trails -- as THQ put it, they are "risk averse," as Ubisoft put it, they "basically copy" -- they are interested in copying the few games that manage to break out. Wii Sports and Wii Fit are examples, and from last generation (and still going strong), Grand Theft Auto and Halo. So we get Wii Sports/Fit clones on the Wii, and FPS/Sandbox/Shooters on the 360 and PS3.

I'm not suggesting you're wrong, or that what you're saying is dumb. I'm just pointing out that this simply isn't how most companies work, and that isn't changing.

One of the best posts you've ever typed as far as I'm concerned. That said, you should add TMNT Smash-up to your list, as it proves once again that Ubisoft firmly intends to copy Nintendo. I think they won't get away with this for much longer. Simply copying a company that already has so many genre kings strikes me as utterly unsafe in the long run.

 

[sonicmj1]

*a long post*

I'm not going to respond to your specific points, because we seem to be largely in agreement.

I don't agree with the strategy that third parties have taken. As skeptical as I may have been of the Wii early on, the thing I liked about it was how it created a more sustainable option for third parties in terms of bringing down development costs. People are treating the platform as if it can't work for what they want it to, when the reality is that they aren't putting the effort in. It's a sort of self-fulfilling prophecy.

The problem is that at this point, they're convinced that they're right, and mere words probably won't do anything. So while Nintendo probably shouldn't have to bribe them onto the system, if they care about third parties being on their platform in that way, they would have to provide a greater incentive. Given time, the rewards will become evident enough that it won't be an issue anymore.

If Nintendo doesn't feel the need to facilitate that (understandable, given their position), that's fine. If drawing those sorts of games was a priority to them, though, then as the platform-holders, they have to be the ones to take steps if other companies won't.

My guess is that Nintendo is satisfied with things as they stand now.

 

[sonicmj1]

It's full of bugs that Tecmo refuses to fix. Nintendo told Tecmo they would bring it to the US and Europe if they fixed the bugs in it, Tecmo refused. I don't think you can really fault Nintendo for not wanting to bring out a faulty product.

Oh.

In that case, it was a poor example to use.

 

[dammitmattt]

And shooters can have better controls and better graphics on PC. I don't understand how some one can go "These genres should only be on PS360 because we can have better graphics than the Wii." and then in the same breath say "It doesn't matter that the PC can do better graphics than the PS360." Everything you're saying as a reason why these games she be focused on the PS360 over the Wii are the exact same reasons why they should be focused on PC over the PS360.

Except people don't buy high-end PC games anymore. And the discussion was what can they do on PS360 that they can't do on Wii. It was NOT what can they do on PC that they can't do on consoles. So please, for the love of Pete, give it a rest.

No its not a ridiculous point. Its pretty damn valid. If the majority of your audience can't take advantage of something than it seems like a pretty weak advantage. What does it matter if the PS360 can do 720p vs the Wii's 480p if 75% of the audience is going to play everything in 480p? Sure it matters to you but it proves that to the general audience graphics aren't that big of a deal.

The people that own an HD console are much more likely to own an HDTV. And again, we're talking about what's possible, not what the lowest common denominator will experience. You are bastardizing the argument for some unknown reason.

 

[Vinci]

If Nintendo doesn't feel the need to facilitate that (understandable, given their position), that's fine. If drawing those sorts of games was a priority to them, though, then as the platform-holders, they have to be the ones to take steps if other companies won't.

My guess is that Nintendo is satisfied with things as they stand now.

Yeah, Nintendo's not going to do a damn thing to help them at this point, IMO. 3rd parties will either take advantage of the option the Wii represents or they won't. Now doing so is actually risky though because the company will be attempting to build an ecosystem on the thing that should have been constructed early in its life, not after every developer outside of Nintendo has taken a dump on it.

 

[Azih]

You mean the way Nintendo has created their own Platformer, Kart Racer, 4P Brawler, and Adventure Game? If it's as simple as this, why aren't we seeing a wealth of high budget Mario Galaxy, Mario Kart, Smash Brothers and Zelda clones?

Look what I'm saying is that the only way to get third parties to make a significant number of games in any genre is to convince them that there is enough of an audience that will pay money for *their* games on the platform that they can turn a proft. That requires the ecosystem that you referred to. It's important to note though that one success does not an ecosystem make, the more games that succeed and the more diverse the games are the better.

What I stated were things first parties can do to encourage this ecosystem from taking root which *is* basically not more than encouraging third parties to take an experimental plunge and the results of that are the biggest factor following third parties will take a look at. So Call of Duty 2 was a gamble on the 360 just as much as Red Steel was on the Wii the outcome of the gamble however was very different on the two platforms as Call of Duty 2 was a part of a huge eco system while Red Steel was a lonely stand alone.

This is not some guaranteed recipie for success of course. Microsoft for example has been trying very hard to get family friendly fare to become a staple on the 360 for a long while now with not much success. Kameo at launch was underwhelming as were the B-K games and the Viva Pinata series. Underwhelmed third parties has led to a lack of family games outside of XBLA (let's see how Natal does). But by taking the lead they are doing what they can to influence third parties.

Nintendo don't encourage or discourage third parties at all really. This leaves third parties to do their own experiments and there have been plenty of experiments on the Wii due to the gargantuan installed base.

Downporting HD titles hasn't been very successful, upporting DS games hasn't set the world on fire either (though they might be successful enough to be profitable), music games and mini game collections on the other hand have been. And that is why we see the kind of third party lineup we see now. EA Sports Active might encourage more balance board fitness games and if Dead Space Extraction works out well then that might encourage more 'different but equal' offshoots of games that are successful on the HD console.

In the end if there is some genre that is under-represented on a console than it's the maufacturer's responsiblity to try to recitify the situation. There are tools that they can use to try to do so that I listed but Nintendo hasn't shown itself willing to use them at all.

Plus Nintendo's approach of really spacing out their major relases doesn't help in creating the eco system of varied and numerous successes in a genre that really gets third parties jumping in.

And are we endorsing moneyhats here, e.g. paying for advertising etc?

I'm not endorsing anything. I'm stating the things Sony and MS have done and do that Nintendo does not.

 

[jmdajr]

Comparing the new Bionic Commando to fuking Golden Axe Beast Rider?

:lol :lol :lol :lol

for god sakes man

 

[Zinthar]

I agree and disagree with this. I think some games can have a rebirth into the current age. Look at Punch Out, the Wii version is just as good as the old school game. That said though there is no way in hell I want the current iteration of Rare to make a new Killer Instinct game. It would be awful I just know it. I think it can be done though. Specially with a game like Strider, update it bring it to the modern age but keep the spirit the same. What about a Strider done like Metroid: Other M? I think these things can be done, the problem is when they leave the spirit and essence of the old games behind. Look at the new Bionic Commando, I'm sorry but that game has nothing to do with the NES game I loved. NOTHING, well other than the guy having a grappling hook arm. That's it though. Why would I get excited for that when it takes the surface level stuff and leaves everything else behind.

I see your point, and can believe that the new Punch-out is better than the original, but I think standards have changed and the solid puzzle fighter that Punch-out was just isn't appealing to many gamers (including myself) any more.

The best gaming experiences in modern games just flat out crushes what could possibly be done in the NES era, and I'm not just talking about graphics and sound. Some things, like SMG, translate wonderfully because they take advantage of the technology and controls offered and put together something that I feel, subjectively, is much stronger than any NES/SNES game ever was.

 

[Vinci]

I see your point, and can believe that the new Punch-out is better than the original, but I think standards have changed and the solid puzzle fighter that Punch-out was just isn't appealing to many gamers (including myself) any more.

The best gaming experiences in modern games just flat out crushes what could possibly be done in the NES era, and I'm not just talking about graphics and sound. Some things, like SMG, translate wonderfully because they take advantage of the technology and controls offered and put together something that I feel, subjectively, is much stronger than any NES/SNES game ever was.

Link's Awakening is the best Zelda to this day. Discuss.

EDIT: Tetris is still the best puzzle game ever.

 

[poppabk]

The Wii can emulate a lot of features that are built in to the 360 (and mostly built-in to the PS3), but it's never going to be the same without real user IDs, good chat technology, and much more. You can easily get a great race in Mario Kart or a good game of team deathmatch in The Conduit, but you're never going to have the level of community features that Bungie and Insomniac offer. The Wii just isn't set up for that. It's not a knock against the Wii. It's better for local multiplayer, and developers should focus on that over online play.

Its not about emulation, the point is that online interactivity, chat tech, user ID's are all software based, they have little to nothing to do with hardware. They could have been implemented last gen (and to a certain extent they were).