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[Vaxadrin]

Well, then probably I'm wrong. The only one I own and have played a lot (but this perhaps is not much of a sandbox game) is NMH. I have played and see others like godfather and some others in some friends place, but it's true that I only tested them a bit. I'll try to test some of them more throughly, I haven't before because I really dislike having to spend time traveling between places in the city.

You need to play some more, with variety, to get the appeal of the sandbox genre.

Climbing to the top of a mountain in Oblivion just to see if it can be done...

Seeing how big of an explosion you can create in Crackdown...

Even approaching a skirmish in Halo 20 different ways...

Emergent gameplay is what I would use to define a "sandbox" game. Having a hub world between levels does not make one. NMH is more of a tongue-in-cheek satire of these games, and its hub is more akin to that of Sonic Adventure/'06.

 

[jarrod]

The problem is that many people started with the 360, play multiplatform games on the 360, and only view the PS3 library as the exclusives, which I think we can all agree have been somewhat underwhelming in comparison to last gen up until this point.

Sounds like GameCube syndrome. :lol

 

[Vinci]

I don't know if Reggie said that, but you make some valid points considering the PS3. Imo, it doesn't have a stronger library than Wii has. Both have their killer apps and AAA+ titles and everything, but because Wii gets more shovelware it seems like the perception is that it somehow doesn't have a good enough library. I just looked and in Wii's current line-up I got 20 upcoming third party games that are great/very interesting, across a vast diversity of genre's (not 1 non-games in it and most of them are exclusive). This is without Nintendo first party games (which they'll also announce more off on e3). I don't come even close to that on the PS3's current line-up.

Based on looking through my Wii collection, it reminds me a bit of the NES, with the obvious exception of the RPG genre (which is still sadly missing). The sheer diversity in titles is absolutely impressive, and it ranges anywhere from Metroid Prime 3 to Boom Blox to Mario Galaxy to Wii Fit.

Even in this thread, people from GAF have stated that they feel the 360's diversity is lacking and that it only caters to certain genres of games. They were, of course, corrected on this issue, but whose fault is this really? I think it's Microsoft's because they haven't done enough to educate even people within this hobby as to the rampant diversity they offer; instead, they've highlighted specific titles that seem to belong to very narrow genres. It's part of their public persona, the 360's identity as a 'hardcore' console. Of course once you're part of the initiated, those owning the thing, you can see from the trailers and demos that there's more than just shooters, racers, and the occasional Western RPG, but to those not already sold on the console that's not nearly as clear.

Nintendo has marketed games of massively different types and very well; to the point that even some random person on the street might be able to name or at least identify something on the system whether they're a gamer or not. It seems like Nintendo did two things this generation: They massively restructured how they market themselves and their products, showcasing diversity, and also are trying to educate even non-gamers on what the system has to offer. I haven't seen that from the other two companies and to their detriment.

 

[Luckyman]

3rd parties do better on Wii confirmed.

That´s great, they have no incentive to do better quality because even crap sells. Which 3rd party is exactly doing better on Wii? Sega?

 

[dammitmattt]

Based on looking through my Wii collection, it reminds me a bit of the NES, with the obvious exception of the RPG genre (which is still sadly missing). The sheer diversity in titles is absolutely impressive, and it ranges anywhere from Metroid Prime 3 to Boom Blox to Mario Galaxy to Wii Fit.

I only own Nintendo games + Boom Blox, and every game is a different type of experience (excepting Wii Play - Wii Sports parallels).

Even in this thread, people from GAF have stated that they feel the 360's diversity is lacking and that it only caters to certain genres of games. They were, of course, corrected on this issue, but whose fault is this really? I think it's Microsoft's because they haven't done enough to educate even people within this hobby as to the rampant diversity they offer; instead, they've highlighted specific titles that seem to belong to very narrow genres. It's part of their public persona, the 360's identity as a 'hardcore' console. Of course once you're part of the initiated, those owning the thing, you can see from the trailers and demos that there's more than just shooters, racers, and the occasional Western RPG, but to those not already sold on the console that's not nearly as clear.

It's not Microsoft's fault that primarily non-360 owners are spreading an old and ignorant meme. Also, they promoted the hell out of Lost Odyssey, Rock Band, Guitar Hero 3, Madden, and other games that fall outside of just the "core shooter." Plus, they've tried with Viva Pinata, Scene It, and a slew of awesome casual XBLA games. It might be Microsoft's fault that the masses don't understand the variety and simplicity of many 360 games (and the price doesn't help one bit), but it's not Microsoft's fault that this shit exists on GAF, where we supposedly are all fairly well-informed.

Nintendo has marketed games of massively different types and very well; to the point that even some random person on the street might be able to name or at least identify something on the system whether they're a gamer or not. It seems like Nintendo did two things this generation: They massively restructured how they market themselves and their products, showcasing diversity, and also are trying to educate even non-gamers on what the system has to offer. I haven't seen that from the other two companies and to their detriment.

Definitely, and even though their tentpole releases all play differently, they still market them as the family-friendly, widely appealing titles that they are. It is easier when you're not trying to sell mature games, though.

 

[Vaxadrin]

Microsoft needs to somehow market XBLA. I don't think I've ever seen it advertised outside the internet. Maybe a general XBLA TV commercial showing a ton of games. There's so much variety and entertainment to be had there, much more than any other console I've ever owned, PC excluded.

 

[Vinci]

Microsoft needs to somehow market XBLA. I don't think I've ever seen it advertised outside the internet. Maybe a general XBLA TV commercial showing a ton of games. There's so much variety and entertainment to be had there, much more than any other console I've ever owned, PC excluded.

I agree with this. XBLA is one of the primary selling points to me when it comes to the 360 and they're completely dropping the ball on advertising it, particularly since you can download trial versions of the games before having to pay for them. It would help if you didn't have to pay the Live charge though.

As Wii Ware develops, I can definitely see Nintendo doing something with it on a commercial venue -- as in putting out TV trailers or some sort of advertisement campaign.

 

[Vaxadrin]

I agree with this. XBLA is one of the primary selling points to me when it comes to the 360 and they're completely dropping the ball on advertising it, particularly since you can download trial versions of the games before having to pay for them. It would help if you didn't have to pay the Live charge though.

As Wii Ware develops, I can definitely see Nintendo doing something with it on a commercial venue -- as in putting out TV trailers or some sort of advertisement campaign.

I thought you only needed silver to get XBLA games.

 

[dammitmattt]

I thought you only needed silver to get XBLA games.

You're right. But in his defense, many of them lose their appeal without online play.

 

[Scrubking]

I just looked and in Wii's current line-up I got 20 upcoming third party games that are great/very interesting, across a vast diversity of genre's (not 1 non-games in it and most of them are exclusive). This is without Nintendo first party games.

Mind listing them?

 

[Zerachiel]

Really, I wonder why S-E doesn't openly advertise their DS games beyond print and online sources. The only one I recall them doing so with is Dragon Quest Monster: Joker, and that commercial they had for it was an absolute joke.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=hBVCFBtWRzY

I'm hoping to see TWEWY have some legs. Anecdotally, I know most stores are sold out of it. One can hope that Square goes the Capcom route and starts producing more copies a la Phoenix Wright.

 

[Jokeropia]

That´s great, they have no incentive to do better quality because even crap sells.

Good Wii third party games generally outsell bad Wii third party games. (Btw, crap games and shovelware also sold great on the PS2.)

Which third parties that do best where is impossible to say from these numbers, but the fact that they overall do best on Wii (launches aligned) is pretty evident.

 

[jay]

Are the people declaring that only bad games sell on the Wii implying capitalism is a broken system?

 

[Zerachiel]

That´s great, they have no incentive to do better quality because even crap sells. Which 3rd party is exactly doing better on Wii? Sega?

That's one way to look at it. The other way is to say, "Wow, crap is selling so well- imagine how much profit we'll reap if we actually deliver a competent project!"

Besides which, I think the Wii games = crap is overrated. Just because they don't appeal to you doesn't mean that they're bad games. There's a world of difference between Deca Sports and Carnival Games, games that are actually entertaining despite their low budgets and production values, and that appeal to a great many people, and what we'd conventionally define as shovelware. Just because they lack 30 customizable weapons and a sprawling open world doesn't make them horrible games.

 

[Shaheed79]

Besides which, I think the Wii games = crap is overrated. Just because they don't appeal to you doesn't mean that they're bad games. There's a world of difference between Deca Sports and Carnival Games, games that are actually entertaining despite their low budgets and production values, and that appeal to a great many people, and what we'd conventionally define as shovelware. Just because they lack 30 customizable weapons and a sprawling open world doesn't make them horrible games.

In this instance which one is entertaining despite its low budget? I've played neither so I really don't know.

 

[Deku]

Good Wii third party games generally outsell bad Wii third party games. (Btw, crap games and shovelware also sold great on the PS2.)

Which third parties that do best where is impossible to say from these numbers, but the fact that they overall do best on Wii (launches aligned) is pretty evident.

It's a bit more complex than that. Well marketed high budget mediocre games sell as well. This is how EA and its myriad of development studios can get away with murder by pumping out games with a good license/genre that people want to play without the polish of a good game.

Ubisoft's imaginez series has done well for it. Though they have failed to make a quick buck with their portjobs on the Wii, I don't think they have truly taken anything away from it. We'll get more imitations of Nintendo's various non-gaming fare.

 

[Neomoto]

Mind listing them?

Hmm, I really don't want to start some list war, but here you go.

(Per publisher, alfabeticly ordered)

Activision
- Guitar Hero IV (Music)
- Call of Duty 5 (FPS)

Atlus
- Trauma Center: New Blood (Simulation) - What, I live in Europe!

Capcom
- We Love Golf (Golf)
- Monster Hunter 3 (Adventure RPG)
- Okami (Action-Adventure) - Again, Europe
- Resident Evil 0 (Survival Horror) * I think it will definitely be announced for a Western release

EA
- Spore (Simulation / God game)
- Rock Band (Music)

JoWood
- Sam & Max: The Adventure of the Year (Adventure)

Konami
- Dance Dance Revolution Hottest Party 2 (Music)

LucasArts
- Lego Indiana Jones (Adventure)
- Lego Batman (Action)

Majesco
- Blast Works; Build, Fuse & Destroy (Scrolling shooter)

Marvelous Interactive
- King Story (Simulation / God game)
- Rune Factory (RPG)
- Oboro Muramasa Youtouden (Vanillaware game) (Action RPG)

Namco Bandai
- Tales of Symphonia: Dawn of the New World (RPG)
- Sky Crawlers (by Team AceCombat) (Flight sim)

Natsume
- Harvest Moon: Tree of Peace (RPG / Simulation)

Sega
- Samba de Amigo Wii (Music)

Square Enix
- Final Fantasy Crystal Chronicles: Crystal Bearers (RPG)

Tecmo
- Fatal Frame (aka Project Zero) (Survival Horror)
- Super Swing Golf Pangya 2nd shot (Golf)

Ubisoft
- Red Steel 2 (FPS)

2K Sports
- Top Spin Tennis (Tennis)

Some maybe's that I didn't counted:

- Star Wars: The Force Unleashed
- Ready 2 Rumble Wii
- Fragile: Farewell Ruins of the Moon
- New Prince of Persia
- New Rainbow Six
- Pro Evolution Soccer 2009

I'm aware not everyone has the same taste, but I think it's pretty decent and very diverse. Especially since these are only 3rd party games and do not include first party AND almost all of them are exclusive. I also think E3 will be very good for Wii.

Edit couple of hours later: Holy shit, can't believe I forgot games like Mad World.

So: Platinum Games - Mad World

"Maybe's" edit:

Treasure's 2 Wii games
Sonic Unleashed
Elebits 2
MySims Kingdom
SimCity

 

[Zerachiel]

In this instance which one is entertaining despite its low budget? I've played neither so I really don't know.

I've had fun with Carnival Games, and I've heard good things about Deca Sports. I was comparing both against what we'd conventionally define as shovelware- E.T. on the 2600, etc.

 

[ViperVisor]

After all the posts I read, up to page 67, it just recently went off the rails.

OK, that has settled some things. Should soak it for next month so we won't have to soak up so many tears.

 

[Shin Johnpv]

OK, that has settled some things. Should soak it for next month so we won't have to soak up so many tears.

There are 2 ifs that could cause even more tears. Nintendo shipped even more than 700k Wiis to the US and/or GTAIV failed to move any hardware in May also.

 

[justchris]

Microsoft needs to somehow market XBLA. I don't think I've ever seen it advertised outside the internet. Maybe a general XBLA TV commercial showing a ton of games. There's so much variety and entertainment to be had there, much more than any other console I've ever owned, PC excluded.

I agree with this. XBLA is one of the primary selling points to me when it comes to the 360 and they're completely dropping the ball on advertising it, particularly since you can download trial versions of the games before having to pay for them. It would help if you didn't have to pay the Live charge though.

As Wii Ware develops, I can definitely see Nintendo doing something with it on a commercial venue -- as in putting out TV trailers or some sort of advertisement campaign.

I've already stated I think Nintendo needs to advertise the hell out of WiiWare & VC, along with all the other features being online nets you (News, Weather, Check Mii Out, Nintendo Channel), with prominent phone numbers to call for assistance getting your console online. The same goes for MS with Live & Sony with PSN. Touting that digital downloads is the future is meaningless when 50% or less of your userbase even bothers to have their consoles online. Imagine how much free money VC could print if a good 80% of the userbase were actually able to access it.

 

[vanguardian1]

I've already stated I think Nintendo needs to advertise the hell out of WiiWare & VC, along with all the other features being online nets you (News, Weather, Check Mii Out, Nintendo Channel), with prominent phone numbers to call for assistance getting your console online. The same goes for MS with Live & Sony with PSN. Touting that digital downloads is the future is meaningless when 50% or less of your userbase even bothers to have their consoles online. Imagine how much free money VC could print if a good 80% of the userbase were actually able to access it.

If I may ask, what about those that can't utilize the service?

Spoiler

there are more people without broadband than you think

 

[MrNyarlathotep]

It's not Microsoft's fault that primarily non-360 owners are spreading an old and ignorant meme. Also, they promoted the hell out of Lost Odyssey, Rock Band, Guitar Hero 3, Madden, and other games that fall outside of just the "core shooter." Plus, they've tried with Viva Pinata, Scene It, and a slew of awesome casual XBLA games. It might be Microsoft's fault that the masses don't understand the variety and simplicity of many 360 games (and the price doesn't help one bit), but it's not Microsoft's fault that this shit exists on GAF, where we supposedly are all fairly well-informed.

(sigh)

A few token efforts in a couple of genres outside of the core genres that 360 owners lap up like nobodies business (SHOOTERS. SPORTS. RACING. SOME KIDDY CRAP TO MAKE A NOD TOWARDS PEOPLE OUTSIDE OUR TARGET DEMOGRAPHIC. JUMP IN.) does not make for a diverse lineup, and at this point in the consoles lifespan there really should be a broader spectrum of titles than there actually is.

This isn't a 'tired meme' from someone who doesn't own a 360, it's an opinion from someone who has had one since launch and sees titles whose core mechanics aren't driving and / or shooting becoming increasingly marginalised as publishers focus moves more and more towards the only titles that actually sell extremely well on the 360 - fucking shooters and fucking racers.

Note that I am not saying in the slightest that the 360 has a bad lineup - because I like most other gamers like the odd racer and shooter, and the 360 undeniably has some of the very best the genre has ever had to offer - but that does not equate to a diverse lineup.

Honestly, I don't want to cause a list wars here, but write down a bunch of genres (and don't ignore genres you personally don't like as usually happens with these kinds of games) then start populating those categories with retail titles. You have three huge columns in 'tired meme stereotype' games and 5 (at best) titles in each of the others. This is a console coming up to being on sale for 2 and a half years, with market leader positioning for 2 of those.

Now, feel free to add in XBLA (although the barriers to entry for a 'casual' user actually purchasing any of those are extremely high - not only due to the online requirement, but also through the obfuscation of price behind 'points', with most titles priced in such a manner that you can't just spend a certain amount on something you want, you end up buying shitty gemrpics or wallpapers just to clear your account) if you really must feel you have to to add to that diversity (which you probably do when you look at the retail puzzle or strategy offerings) but then you have to factor in that a lot of the XBLA releases are also shooters!

The 360 still has an incredibly tight focus on certain types of games, and I'm not even saying that that is especially Microsofts fault, because it becomes increasingly clear that the self-proclaimed 'hardcore' really really really fucking love certain game mechanics and will buy anything that involves them, especially if its hyped to the heavens and has pretty graphics.

This is pretty much worthy of a topic on its own rather than being part of an NPD topic (although the last time I saw a 'the 360 actually has a really diverse lineup!' topic it was utterly retarded and did things like classify Crackdown and Just Cause as 'action games!' and not at all shooters) but there really is not much software diversity on the 360, either in publisher output or in buyers habits, and as it's market matures (as it seems fairly clearly likely it is doing) there is going to be even less due to genre saturation and stagnation.

 

[dammitmattt]

(sigh)

A few token efforts in a couple of genres outside of the core genres that 360 owners lap up like nobodies business (SHOOTERS. SPORTS. RACING. SOME KIDDY CRAP TO MAKE A NOD TOWARDS PEOPLE OUTSIDE OUR TARGET DEMOGRAPHIC. JUMP IN.) does not make for a diverse lineup, and at this point in the consoles lifespan there really should be a broader spectrum of titles than there actually is.

This isn't a 'tired meme' from someone who doesn't own a 360, it's an opinion from someone who has had one since launch and sees titles whose core mechanics aren't driving and / or shooting becoming increasingly marginalised as publishers focus moves more and more towards the only titles that actually sell extremely well on the 360 - fucking shooters and fucking racers.

Note that I am not saying in the slightest that the 360 has a bad lineup - because I like most other gamers like the odd racer and shooter, and the 360 undeniably has some of the very best the genre has ever had to offer - but that does not equate to a diverse lineup.

Honestly, I don't want to cause a list wars here, but write down a bunch of genres (and don't ignore genres you personally don't like as usually happens with these kinds of games) then start populating those categories with retail titles. You have three huge columns in 'tired meme stereotype' games and 5 (at best) titles in each of the others. This is a console coming up to being on sale for 2 and a half years, with market leader positioning for 2 of those.

Now, feel free to add in XBLA (although the barriers to entry for a 'casual' user actually purchasing any of those are extremely high - not only due to the online requirement, but also through the obfuscation of price behind 'points', with most titles priced in such a manner that you can't just spend a certain amount on something you want, you end up buying shitty gemrpics or wallpapers just to clear your account) if you really must feel you have to to add to that diversity (which you probably do when you look at the retail puzzle or strategy offerings) but then you have to factor in that a lot of the XBLA releases are also shooters!

The 360 still has an incredibly tight focus on certain types of games, and I'm not even saying that that is especially Microsofts fault, because it becomes increasingly clear that the self-proclaimed 'hardcore' really really really fucking love certain game mechanics and will buy anything that involves them, especially if its hyped to the heavens and has pretty graphics.

This is pretty much worthy of a topic on its own rather than being part of an NPD topic (although the last time I saw a 'the 360 actually has a really diverse lineup!' topic it was utterly retarded and did things like classify Crackdown and Just Cause as 'action games!' and not at all shooters) but there really is not much software diversity on the 360, either in publisher output or in buyers habits, and as it's market matures (as it seems fairly clearly likely it is doing) there is going to be even less due to genre saturation and stagnation.

Newsflash: Shooters, Sports, and Driving games have been the three best-selling genres for the last decade. That's what the US wants, so of course the publishers are going to produce games in those categories. Recently, Music and Mini-game collections have risen to popularity, but the core of the industry is shooters, sports, and driving. This is not unique to Microsoft or the Xbox brand...look at the best-selling console games of the past decade and you'll see a whole lot of these three genres.

Wiht that said, I'll bite. The 360 unquestionably has a more diverse lineup at this point than the PS3, and while it doesn't have quite the number of different types of games as the Wii (and really, some of them are impossible to replicate without the Wiimote), I would argue that it does have a much bigger diversity of GOOD games right now. I did this earlier, but this is taken straight from my Gamertag broken down in to genres for easier consumption for you (and I'm not going to even list the games I didn't at least enjoy somewhat):

Retail

RPG - Mass Effect, Oblivion, Lost Odyssey, Blue Dragon, Enchanted ARMs, Eternal Sonata, Phantasy Star Universe, Final Fantasy XI

Sandbox - GTA4, Crackdown, Just Cause, The Godfather, Bully, Saints Row

Action/Adventure - Portal, Assassin's Creed, Devil May Cry 4, Dead Rising, Tomb Raider Legend, Tomb Raider Anniversary, Simpsons Game, Spider-man 3, Gun, King Kong, Kameo, Condemned, Condemned 2, Hitman: Blood Money, Marvel: Ultimate Alliance, Cars, Splinter Cell: Double Agent, Lost: Via Domus, Harry Potter: OOTP, Pirates of the Carribbean: At World's End, TMNT, Dynasty Warriors, Samauri Warriors, Lego Star Wars

Extreme - Skate, Tony Hawk:AW, Tony Hawk Project 8, Amped 3

Fighting - Dead or Alive 4, Virtua Fighter 5

Music - Rock Band, Guitar Hero 2, Guitar Hero 3

Flight - Ace Combat 6, Blazing Angels, Blazing Angels 2

Party/Casual/Other - Viva Pinata, Viva Pinata Party Animals, Scene It, Beautiful Katamari, Tetris Evolution, Table Tennis

XBLA

RPG - Penny Arcade Adventures

Board/Card Game - Catan, Carcassonne, Wits & Wagers, Lost Cities, Hearts, Spades, Solitaire, UNO, Backgammon, Spyglass Board Games, Texas Hold'em

Puzzle - Puzzle Quest, Puzzle Fighter HD, Lumines, Poker Smash, Tetris Splash, Luxor 2, Zuma, Bejeweled, Hexic, Hexic 2, Eets, Worms, Pac-Man CE, Marble Blast Ultra, Astropop, Feeding Frenzy, Jewel Quest, Crystal Quest, Bomberman LIVE,

Twin Stick - Geometry Wars, Mutant Storm Reloaded, Mutant Storm Empire, Assault Heroes, Assault Heroes 2, Heavy Weapon, Undertow

Arcade - Paperboy, Golden Axe, Contra, Aegis Wing, Xevious, Centipede/Millipede, New Rally-X, Ms Pac-Man, Pac-Man, Galaga, Dig Dug, Scramble, Time Pilot, Frogger, Street Fighter 2, Joust, Gauntlet, Smash TV, TMNT, Streets of Rage 2

Platformer/Adventure - N+,EXIT, Gripshift, Castlevania:SOTN, Cloning Clyde, Alien Hominid, Wik, Sonic, Sonic 2, Arkadian Warriors, Prince of Persia

Music/Other - Rez HD, Boom Boom Rocket, Pinball F/X, 3D Minigolf, Band of Bugs

 

[jarrod]

Newsflash: Shooters, Sports, and Driving games have been the three best-selling genres for the last decade.

To be fair, they're also the 3 most loaded genres... and really if we looking at upper sales superstars, the top few games are sandbox (GTA), simulation (Sims) and RPG (Pokemon), each beating out anything in these three genres.

FPS and Sports are huge, but I wouldn't put racers ahead of sandboxers, RPGs, sims or even puzzle games (which sell enourmously on the lower end) honestly.

 

[dammitmattt]

To be fair, they're also the 3 most loaded genres... and really if we looking at upper sales superstars, the top few games are sandbox (GTA), simulation (Sims) and RPG (Pokemon), each beating out anything in these three genres.

FPS and Sports are huge, but I wouldn't put racers ahead of sandboxers, RPGs, sims or even puzzle games (which sell enourmously on the lower end) honestly.

Gran Turismo and Need for Speed are two of the biggest series of the past decade.

 

[jarrod]

Gran Turismo and Need for Speed are two of the biggest series of the past decade.

Not bigger than the three I listed though. Hell, not bigger than Nintendogs or WOW even... and while there's a few high profile performers, we have many, many more high profile racers that tank. I think the racing genre's more glutted than anything, though fps is headed that direction too. Sports is so diverse a genre though, it's really a bit hard comparing directly to these others imo.

Really though, the three genres you listed (while near top of the pack certainly) aren't tne end all when it comes to mainstream gaming... and while I disagree with the argument of 360's library not being diverse, it's not the catch all it could be either. It's no PS2 for sure, but it's closer at least than the competition.

 

[MrNyarlathotep]

Now for fun, let's take out all of the titles that have shooting things or driving things as primary gameplay mechanics from your list of retail games, shall we?

(I don't even really want to touch how you've labelled things by genre... PSU is an RPG and Marvel Ultimate Alliance is an action/adventure? Really? King Kong isn't an FPS? seriously?)

RPG - Oblivion, Lost Odyssey, Blue Dragon, Enchanted ARMs, Eternal Sonata, Final Fantasy XI

Sandbox - Bully

Action/Adventure - Portal, Assassin's Creed, Devil May Cry 4, Spider-man 3, Kameo, Cars, Lost: Via Domus, Harry Potter: OOTP, Pirates of the Carribbean: At World's End, TMNT, Dynasty Warriors, Samauri Warriors

Extreme - Skate, Tony Hawk:AW, Tony Hawk Project 8, Amped 3

Fighting - Dead or Alive 4, Virtua Fighter 5

Music - Rock Band, Guitar Hero 2, Guitar Hero 3

Party/Casual/Other - Viva Pinata, Viva Pinata Party Animals, Scene It, Beautiful Katamari, Tetris Evolution, Table Tennis

...that's a diverse lineup for 2 years as market leader? :|
Take out the PS2 ports and the movie licences and it's even worse.

The wii has a more diverse lineup with much worse third party efforts involved, and I never claimed the PS3 lineup to be more diverse (although I do think that both PSN and WiiWare are offering more diversity in their digital distributed games than the XBLA does)

 

[dave is ok]

e (although I do think that both PSN and WiiWare are offering more diversity in their digital distributed games than the XBLA does)

Wha? :lol

 

[MrNyarlathotep]

Wha? :lol

I should probably clarify that with 'new games that are unique to the service' I guess.

 

[Vaxadrin]

I should probably clarify that with 'new games that are unique to the service' I guess.

Keep on goalposting that criteria, soldier.

 

[dammitmattt]

Now for fun, let's take out all of the titles that have shooting things or driving things as primary gameplay mechanics from your list of retail games, shall we?

It is absolutely ridiculous to take out gameplay elements just to support your argument. It's like saying "the Wii lineup sucks if you take out games where you point at the screen" or "the 16-bit lineups suck when you take out games where you jump."

(I don't even really want to touch how you've labelled things by genre... PSU is an RPG and Marvel Ultimate Alliance is an action/adventure? Really? King Kong isn't an FPS? seriously?)

That's a tiny nitpick. PSU is an RPG. Marvel Ultimate Alliance has some RPG elements, but it can be played as a straight action game if you set everything to level automatically. And King Kong hardly has any shooting!

...that's a diverse lineup for 2 years as market leader? :|
Take out the PS2 ports and the movie licences and it's even worse.

But the Wii is the market leader, right? And I would argue that the 360 compares favorably to any console at this point in its lifecycle.

The wii has a more diverse lineup with much worse third party efforts involved, and I never claimed the PS3 lineup to be more diverse (although I do think that both PSN and WiiWare are offering more diversity in their digital distributed games than the XBLA does)

Show me that the Wii has a more diverse lineup. Taking away games using your criteria, you'd have to remove anything with shooting, driving, or sports elements, including every game I own except for Super Paper Mario (Boom Blox, Mario Galaxy (you shoot stars), Metroid Prime, Wii Play, Zelda, Mario Kart, and Wii Sports would all have to go). Do you see how stupid it is to do that?

Also, it's absolutely insane to say that PSN and WiiWare have more diversity. PSN has just a small fraction of the XBLA titles and WiiWare is just getting started. The Wii VC is a great way to relive your 8-bit and 16-bit childhood, but it doesn't have close to the diversity of games that XBLA has. Once WiiWare truly gets up and running, I'm sure it'll have a ton of unique stuff, but it's not there yet so to make that claim is mind-boggling.

I should probably clarify that with 'new games that are unique to the service' I guess.

Uniqueness doesn't count and hasn't even been a part of this conversation. All that matters is availability.

I'm curious, what's your Gamertag? You don't seem to have a lot of experience with the 360 lineup and XBLA in particular.

 

[Rocksteady33]

GTA's main gameplay revolves around guns and driving, that's not that ridiculous to exclude it from proving the Xbox 360 has a diverse lineup away from shooters/drivers/sports games. The exclusion of Crackdown I sort of disagree with, but you have to admit a lot of the games on the Xbox 360 that you provided "diversify the lineup" is not exactly true because they blend in a lot of what the Xbox demographic snatches up.

 

[dammitmattt]

The more I think about this, the more it annoys me. It's ridiculous to label all shooters, sports, and driving games into three distinct categories when you can such vastly different experiences within the same genre.

For instance, Burnout Paradise is a driving game, but it has just as much in common with sandbox games like GTA as it does previous Burnouts. On top of that, you've got both competitive and cooperative online challenges which give it even more variety. Compare that to a straight sim like Forza 2 or a straight arcade racer like Burnout Revenge. Or the style-based driving mechanic in PGR. All are vastly different experiences.

The same goes for shooters. Halo 3 and COD4 are much different experiences, and most people would consider those fairly close. Then you have your cover-based shooters (Gears), tactical shooters (GRAW, Vegas), and your Battlefield-style games (Frontlines, Battlefield). All are vastly different.

Then you go an apply your criteria and wipe out other games that are vastly different just because they have shooting and driving mechanics? Condemned is the best horror game in years. Crackdown is more of a platformer than anything. GTA4 has an incredible amount of content that's not just focused on shooting and racing. Mass Effect has shooting elements, but it's absolutely like nothing discussed above. Same for Oblivion. Adventure games like Tomb Raider and action games like Devil May Cry 4 have shooting but they are completely different than anything above.

And don't even get me started on how many different types of games there are in the sports genre, but I'm sure you don't play them so you wouldn't understand.

GTA's main gameplay revolves around guns and driving, that's not that ridiculous to exclude it from proving the Xbox 360 has a diverse lineup away from shooters/drivers/sports games. The exclusion of Crackdown I sort of disagree with, but you have to admit a lot of the games on the Xbox 360 that you provided "diversify the lineup" is not exactly true because they blend in a lot of what the Xbox demographic snatches up.

See my point above about applying the same criteria to the Wii lineup. You can't ignore the varying experiences just because certain elements are the same across titles and genres.

 

[Vinci]

There's a lot of anger in here.

My issue isn't what's available for the 360, as I think there's a helluva lot. I just think if they ever hope to capture part of the Wii's fire, they'd have to start showcasing things that aren't so focused towards their core demographics. Another thing that might be interesting is creating a certain criteria (not genre based) that would allow you to display when titles that don't fit within that criteria are released for the system. [Not XBLA but disc titles, as that's primarily what's seen by the public on shelves and in commercials.]

I hate to use the term 'mature' for it, but things featuring content that is primarily driven by its core demographic (15-30 year old males?). Does that sound fair? 'Cause with the exception of Viva Pinata and a couple of the JRPGs, I can't think of too much that strays from that. You can correct me if you like (and you probably will), but I think it would be an interesting experiment to see whether the 360 has any chance of catching on with a bigger portion of the market.

 

[dammitmattt]

There's a lot of anger in here.

My issue isn't what's available for the 360, as I think there's a helluva lot. I just think if they ever hope to capture part of the Wii's fire, they'd have to start showcasing things that aren't so focused towards their core demographics. Another thing that might be interesting is creating a certain criteria (not genre based) that would allow you to display when titles that don't fit within that criteria are released for the system. [Not XBLA but disc titles, as that's primarily what's seen by the public on shelves and in commercials.]

I hate to use the term 'mature' for it, but things featuring content that is primarily driven by its core demographic (15-30 year old males?). Does that sound fair? 'Cause with the exception of Viva Pinata and a couple of the JRPGs, I can't think of too much that strays from that. You can correct me if you like (and you probably will), but I think it would be an interesting experiment to see whether the 360 has any chance of catching on with a bigger portion of the market.

Those are good ideas. I'm glad that the 360 isn't trying to replicate what the Wii is doing, just like no one wants half-assed, downgraded HD ports on the Wii. I think that both systems have their own markets and should stick to their strengths.

 

[Vinci]

I'm glad that the 360 isn't trying to replicate what the Wii is doing, just like no one wants half-assed, downgraded HD ports on the Wii. I think that both systems have their own markets and should stick to their strengths.

I completely agree that they shouldn't try to do the same things: They're two very different systems touting very different features. At the same time, they are competing on some level and I'm curious what the 360's chances are in garnering more of the market if GTA IV, in fact, did not have an impact on hardware sales and its library doesn't feature enough outside a particular criteria to lure in a new consumer base.

This isn't an attack on the system, just an attempt to forecast (in some small way) its chances for future success compared to the success it's already achieved.

EDIT: If we begin this for this week and the coming week:

[Stolen shamelessly from the NA release list.]

Xbox 360
This Week (5/18 - 5/24)

Monday (5/19)

UEFA Euro 2008

Next Week (5/25 - 5/31) [Tentative]

Tuesday (5/27)

Enemy Territory: Quake Wars, Lost Planet: Extreme Condition Colonies Edition

All of this fits within their core demographic.

 

[jarrod]

In a way, it almost seems like 360 and Wii have split PS2's library/demographics imo. 360 gets the jock gamers, PC converts and self proclaimed "hardcore", Wii gets the super casuals, retro gamers and Japanophiles.


I'd also like to point out Microsoft's made more attempts at the casual crowd than just Viva games too. Everyparty, Fusion Frenzy 2, Scene It! and a ton of XBLA releases too... Microsoft's arguably released more "casual" 360 games than Nintendo has "casual" Wii games. :lol

 

[Vinci]

In a way, it almost seems like 360 and Wii have split PS2's library/demographics imo. 360 gets the jock gamers, PC converts and self proclaimed "hardcore", Wii gets the super casuals, retro gamers and Japanophiles.

Wii also grabbed the PS2's casual-friendly hardware sales.

EDIT: What's interesting about this is that the Wii really only has the Nintendo core titles and next to none of the other major 3rd party franchises, yet it captured the PS2's hardware sales with (one could argue) the influence of the Wiimote and Nintendo alone.

I'd also like to point out Microsoft's made more attempts at the casual crowd than just Viva games too. Everyparty, Fusion Frenzy 2, Scene It! and a ton of XBLA releases too... Microsoft's arguably released more "casual" 360 games than Nintendo has "casual" Wii games. :lol

Which ones got a commercial or any sort of real advertising behind them other than Viva though? That's the only one of them that I can recall seeing anywhere on television. And my criteria removes XBLA titles since they're not promoted to anyone outside of the core demographic.

 

[Saint Gregory]

There's a whole lot of hyperbole going in both directions on this 360 diversity issue but I think it's undeniable that the 360 at least has a perception problem or it's market growth wouldn't be stagnating the way it seems to be.

I've noted in the past that MS seems to know its base and what it wants better than Sony and Nintendo and listed that as a strength but if they and their partners focus on selling the same core group the same games then they'll never expand beyond thatgroup.

You can list all the games you want that deviate from that focus but if those games aren't successful on 360 it only reinforces the point. MS has got to address this perception before next gen if they ever intend to truly rule this industry.

 

[felipeko]

You know what i think the most disappoint area in both PS3 and 360 library?

Local multiplayer games. Most people here just don't seem to care at all (just judging by the lists here). But for me is the biggest reason i even care about consoles...

 

[larvi]

In a way, it almost seems like 360 and Wii have split PS2's library/demographics imo. 360 gets the jock gamers, PC converts and self proclaimed "hardcore", Wii gets the super casuals, retro gamers and Japanophiles.

To me it looks like the PSP and DS are also absorbing some of the PS2 games, especially 2D RPGs/SRPGs which is one of my preferred genres. At this point in the game none of the 3 current gen consoles really has much that interests me, but I do have a 360 that the kids play and have a Wii on the way so hopefully both will get more diverse as times goes on.

 

[AstroLad]

You know what i think the most disappoint area in both PS3 and 360 library?

Local multiplayer games. Most people here just don't seem to care at all (just judging by the lists here). But for me is the biggest reason i even care about consoles...

calling all cars and bomberman live are solid local multi titles, beyond of course the typical sports and fps games. but yeah local multi is only coming into its own now this gen. i wouldnt say the wii library was even much of a standout until boom blox came out (but then again my wife, friends, and i don't really like wii sports all that much so ymmv) but it is the leader (sb, blox, sports, smarty pants). let's hope the trend continues.

 

[Vinci]

To me it looks like the PSP and DS are also absorbing some of the PS2 games, especially 2D RPGs/SRPGs which is one of my preferred genres. At this point in the game none of the 3 current gen consoles really has much that interests me, but I do have a 360 that the kids play and have a Wii on the way so hopefully both will get more diverse as times goes on.

Yeah, considering recent announcements (DQ IV, V, and VI), the DS has pretty much become the greatest RPG machine ever. I do wish the consoles would be seeing more love, but hey, at least we're getting them in some form.

 

[dammitmattt]

You know what i think the most disappoint area in both PS3 and 360 library?

Local multiplayer games. Most people here just don't seem to care at all (just judging by the lists here). But for me is the biggest reason i even care about consoles...

Rock Band, Guitar Hero, and Scene It are all great local multiplayer retail games, but the real action is on XBLA. There are a couple dozen arcade games that are great including Bomberman, Worms, and all of the old arcade games. It's too bad that most of the good card and board games can't work locally (for obvious reasons).

 

[AstroLad]

Rock Band, Guitar Hero, and Scene It are all great local multiplayer retail games, but the real action is on XBLA. There are a couple dozen arcade games that are great including Bomberman, Worms, and all of the old arcade games. It's too bad that most of the good card and board games can't work locally (for obvious reasons).

haha yeah rock band of course

 

[Christine]

EDIT: What's interesting about this is that the Wii really only has the Nintendo core titles and next to none of the other major 3rd party franchises, yet it captured the PS2's hardware sales with (one could argue) the influence of the Wiimote and Nintendo alone.

Well, remember that Nintendo is the biggest game publisher in the world. They were neck and neck with EA last generation, and it's important to remember that Nintendo only published on GBA and the ailing GameCube whereas EA publishes on every platform.

GameCube was never able to gain any appreciable momentum, but the remote, convenience attributes and pricepoint of the Wii gave it momentum out the gate. Nintendo, as an integrated hardware and software company knows how to use that synergy to sustain the hardware sales momentum as well as boost the sales of their games.

 

[Vinci]

Well, remember that Nintendo is the biggest game publisher in the world. They were neck and neck with EA last generation, and it's important to remember that Nintendo only published on GBA and the ailing GameCube whereas EA publishes on every platform.

GameCube was never able to gain any appreciable momentum, but the remote, convenience attributes and pricepoint of the Wii gave it momentum out the gate. Nintendo, as an integrated hardware and software company knows how to use that synergy to sustain the hardware sales momentum as well as boost the sales of their games.

Believe me, I'm not underestimating Nintendo in the slightest -- just amazed that it's basically taking on the rest of the world right now and winning.

 

[MrNyarlathotep]

It is absolutely ridiculous to take out gameplay elements just to support your argument. It's like saying "the Wii lineup sucks if you take out games where you point at the screen" or "the 16-bit lineups suck when you take out games where you jump."

Now I know you're not trying to equate game features ('jumping') or game control methods ('pointing at the screen') with game mechanics here...
You'll notice for example I left POTC on your list, even though it features a gun to kill things via shooting - because the primary game mechanic is melee combat.

Arguably Condemned should have stayed on there too, due to it being much closer to an FP beat 'em up, but that's much more debatable.

But the Wii is the market leader, right? And I would argue that the 360 compares favorably to any console at this point in its lifecycle.

Yes, but it hasn't been market leader for 2 years now, which the 360 has.

Which is pretty much my point here.

If the Wii lineup is predominantly PS2 / PSP ports and minigame collections in a year and a halfs time, feel free to start arguing with people claiming it has a diverse lineup.

But right now, if you list games that fulfill the Wii stereotype (which is currently PS2 / PSP ports and waggle minigames) and compare them to the available games on the Wii, you'll find quite a lot of decent games in multiple genres that don't smack of desperation in listing (seriously now, Cars? Cars?)

Show me that the Wii has a more diverse lineup. Taking away games using your criteria, you'd have to remove anything with shooting, driving, or sports elements, including every game I own except for Super Paper Mario (Boom Blox, Mario Galaxy (you shoot stars), Metroid Prime, Wii Play, Zelda, Mario Kart, and Wii Sports would all have to go). Do you see how stupid it is to do that?

I only removed games whose primary gameplay mechanics are driving and shooting. If I took out 'sports' you'd have lost your entire 'extreme' genre list, wouldn't you?

In which case yeah, take MP3 off of the list of anyone claiming that the Wiis lineup is predominantly made up of games whose primary mechanics are shooting and / or driving.

Is anyone claiming that?

I'm curious, what's your Gamertag? You don't seem to have a lot of experience with the 360 lineup and XBLA in particular.

Gamertag is in my profile, my 360 doesn't go online very often because I don't want to pay my online tax. But go ahead and check how long I've had a 360 for! Then go right ahead to the ad hominem that I can't have many 360 games because the last update to my gamercard was finishing the first mission in Mass Effect a few months back!

It's also the same as my Steam ID and my PSN ID. Because I do actually own all of the available consoles, so aren't trying to attack the 360 becuase I can only afford a Wii or whatever the hell it is you're thinking.

I'm attacking the 360s diversity because in my eyes it is seriously underperforming in breadth of gameplay experiences as the market leading HD console.

 

[Hero]

It'd be hard for the 360 to not have a few games in outside core demographics but when you look at what sells on the system, it's typically shooters/sports. Might as well make the analogy to "Only Nintendo games sell" on Nintendo systems.