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[proandrad]

I believe it, a lot of these terrible decisions come from the heads of the studios. Remember when people thought Bobby Kotick was the reason blizzard was making crappy games. The heads of Sony just want to make lots of money and they give the studios a revenue goal. The heads of the studios go live service because they think it’s the best and most stable way to make those revenue goals consistently.

 

[Fbh]

So no one is forcing them....but they know the projects are more likely to get approved if they are GAAS.

Lol this is like the company I used to work for
"No one is telling you to work more than 8 hours today...we just need you to get 12 hours worth of work done today but it's up to you if you stay longer"

 

[iamvin22]

 

[FoxMcChief]

Meanwhile, we found footage from one of the devs “not forced” to make a GaaS.

 

[Shubh_C63]

Have we ever read news of Sony forcing their teams to do stuff they don't want to. Infact most of the time we have heard quite the opposite.

Its very much must have been a mutual decision. Even developers suit people want to make themselves indispensable to Sony portfolio by being a long running successful GaaS.

 

[Fabieter]

I'm seriously considering putting you on ignore.

Name me the last successful London Studios game. They didn't get shutdown because of the live service push, they got shutdown because they haven't produced in years.

Do you know what if you think there is nothing for criticism I don't care. I think you aint a gamer, you just a shareholder from Sony.

 

[FeralEcho]

Teams look at the market and adapt.

They must have Ray Charles vision then.

 

[Killjoy-NL]

They must have Ray Charles vision then.

What are the most played games again?

 

[FeralEcho]

What are the most played games again?

What are the biggest failures again?

 

[lughnasadh123]

Definitely seems like a clear case of follow the push Sony was going for but also seeing the value and rising consumer interest in live service games regardless of how much SP purists hate them. Also, anyone who thinks that push is dead is delusional, it's only just begun.

 

[Felessan]

Haters as usual invent fantasy reality

Devs are just normal people, they too want great success, money and what's very important - to be relevant in their field.
As market being encroached by live service games many people will be looking at opportunity to gain experience and portfolio line in live service games.
Some will stick to old ways, becoming a niche devs, but those who follow the market can't be blamed.

 

[Killjoy-NL]

What are the biggest failures again?

From the top of my head:
Concord, Indy and Avowed.

That's two sp AA and 1 gaas.

 

[Bernardougf]

 

[FeralEcho]

From the top of my head:
Concord, Indy and Avowed.

That's two sp AA and 1 gaas.

Maybe go a bit lower than the top next time then seeing as you've left out anything older than half a year ago lmao

Guess you've forgotten all the live service project cancelations at Sony that sent studios back for years,unless you count that as a success ,or hell let's go further... Let's see some other "success" stories If that's the case:

What about the insane success stories of Suicide Squad, Anthem, Avengers, Evolved, Multiversus, Skull and Bones, Foamstars or Battlefield 2042 just to name a few...

 

[Killjoy-NL]

Maybe go a bit lower than the top next time then seeing as you've left out anything older than half a year ago lmao

Guess you've forgotten all the live service project cancelations at Sony that sent studios back for years,unless you count that as a success ,or hell let's go further... Let's see some other "success" stories If that's the case:

What about the insane success stories of Suicide Squad, Anthem, Avengers, Evolved, Multiversus, Skull and Bones, Foamstars or Battlefield 2042 just to name a few...

Yeah, or Starfield, Hellblade 2, Hifi Rush.

Then again, for some reason you didn't mention games like COD, Apex Legends, Palworld, Fortnite or Helldivers 2.

It's also not like Sony replaced all non-gaas with gaas.
They're doing both.

 

[Fabieter]

What about the insane success stories of Suicide Squad, Anthem, Avengers, Evolved, Multiversus, Skull and Bones, Foamstars or Battlefield 2042 just to name a few...

Destruction Allstars

 

[FeralEcho]

Destruction Allstars

That too.

 

[ProtoByte]

I can believe that in the sense that it was strongly suggested. I mean, that's he's saying essentially.

I've said it before but I'll say it again: The people that work at these studios have career ambitions. All it takes is one or two people who want to be the new big cheese to come up with a pitch, and now the company is heading in a whole different direction. Not to drag out a dead horse here, but if you don't think Vinit Agarwal was aiming to essentially succeed Neil Druckmann, you're being generous.

So Yoshida is playing a little bit sleight of mouth here: He knows damn well how these things work.

All...except Team Asobi, Housemarque, Insomniac, Sucker Punch, Sony Santa Monica, Media Molecule, Bluepoint, etc... guess they all missed the memo.

Well, you gotta imagine there was some prisoner's gambit.

And also, Bluepoint and Insomniac both were developing live service games. A God of War live service that smacks of corporate influence and a multiverse multiplayer Spider-Man game respectively. Insomniac also stupidly planned on MP modes for the 2 X-Men games they should be making after Wolverine. Media Molecule is coming off a pseudo live service flop.

 

[Rentahamster]

“From my experience, when studios see the company has a big initiative, [they realise] riding on that gives them a better chance of getting a project approved and supported,” he explained. “It’s not like [current PS Studios boss Hermen Hulst] is telling teams they need to make live service games, it’s likely mutual.”

Functionally, that's the same thing.

 

[foamdino]

This is just pitching smart. If the company is re-focusing in a specific area and you want a higher chance of getting greenlit, you direct your designs to that area and pitch with that in mind. If you are pitching orthogonal to the direction of the company I suspect your chances of getting greenlit are less (non-zero but less). So it just makes sense. I don't think it's a good idea for the portfolio management side of things, that is on Hulst etc to notice that more and more game pitches are coming in around a single theme and to knock some back and suggest more variety. Individual studios and teams though shouldn't be considered "bad" for suggesting a game that is more likely to get greenlit.

 

[FeralEcho]

Yeah, or Starfield, Hellblade 2, Hifi Rush.

Then again, for some reason you didn't mention games like COD, Apex Legends, Palworld, Fortnite or Helldivers 2.

It's also not like Sony replaced all non-gaas with gaas.
They're doing both.

You keep mentioning Xbox titles as if it's a contest .Yeah Xbox games do poor in sales,we know that already because gamepass is the main drive of that thing so it's a moot point to compare sales of games that are available on a subscription versus ones that are supposed to be live service.

And again I thought this was about Sony and their view of the market,what's Microsoft got to do with anything. Unless you're really gonna tell me you were looking at Starfield to be a big seller when it was announced to be available on gamepass day 1 as did the other games you mentioned. I would hope devs are smarter than that as an example of a "big" release,especially when it was riddled with bugs at launch and probably even now knowing Bethesda though I haven't played it so can't judge its current state.


As for your actual live service argument.

The reason I didn't mention Apex,COD or Fortnite is because those have been the poster childs for successful GAAS since a decade, it's literally the reason so many live service games fail. Because they try to copy those 3 games and we've seen failure after failure after failure in search of that lightning in a bottle.

Ofc there's gonna be 1 success in 100 tries like Palworld or Helldivers 2 which had a great start but from what I remember seeing it isn't doing so well lately,Its numbers have gone down significantly.

But if you think 1 success in 10 or 50 or 100 tries is good vision of the market as a developer then I don't know what to tell you except go ahead and gamble some big money since that's might as well what they'll be doing if that's the case.

And Sony hasnt abandoned sp experiences ofc not, we've just got Astrobot recently but that doesn't mean we're getting the same amount of them as we would've had they not started this gaas initiative so don't be naive.

Hell it's just recently we've heard about the Bend and Bluepoint gaas project cancelations that sent them back years. Or do you think Bend's been working on a simple Days Gone remaster for 6 years?!

ALL the cancelations are proof that this

Teams look at the market and adapt.

Didn't work out at all when it came to their vision of the market. That's IF you trully believe that's the case and it wasn't actually publisher forcing them to "adapt" to it.

Anyway, we're running in circles apparently so how about we end it here. Let's agree to disagree.

 

[Killjoy-NL]

You keep mentioning Xbox titles as if it's a contest .Yeah Xbox games do poor in sales,we know that already because gamepass is the main drive of that thing so it's a moot point to compare sales of games that are available on a subscription versus ones that are supposed to be live service.

And again I thought this was about Sony and their view of the market,what's Microsoft got to do with anything. Unless you're really gonna tell me you were looking at Starfield to be a big seller when it was announced to be available on gamepass day 1 as did the other games you mentioned. I would hope devs are smarter than that as an example of a "big" release,especially when it was riddled with bugs at launch and probably even now knowing Bethesda though I haven't played it so can't judge its current state.

I was talking about the market in general.

It's not my fault that Xbox has the most notable non-gaas fails, where Sony barely has any.
But there's also games like DA Veilguard, ofcourse.

As for your actual live service argument.

The reason I didn't mention Apex,COD or Fortnite is because those have been the poster childs for successful GAAS since a decade, it's literally the reason so many live service games fail. Because they try to copy those 3 games and we've seen failure after failure after failure in search of that lightning in a bottle.

Ofc there's gonna be 1 success in 100 tries like Palworld or Helldivers 2 which had a great start but from what I remember seeing it isn't doing so well lately,Its numbers have gone down significantly.

But if you think 1 success in 10 or 50 or 100 tries is good vision of the market as a developer then I don't know what to tell you except go ahead and gamble some big money since that's might as well what they'll be doing if that's the case.

This is completely besides the point.
Fact is that live service speaks to a large part of the market, which is an area where Sony has been lacking.

And Sony hasnt abandoned sp experiences ofc not, we've just got Astrobot recently but that doesn't mean we're getting the same amount of them as we would've had they not started this gaas initiative so don't be naive.

This is purely hypothetical and no guarantee that it would be a much better approach.

Hell it's just recently we've heard about the Bend and Bluepoint gaas project cancelations that sent them back years. Or do you think Bend's been working on a simple Days Gone remaster for 6 years?!

ALL the cancelations are proof that this

Didn't work out at all when it came to their vision of the market. That's IF you trully believe that's the case and it wasn't actually publisher forcing them to "adapt" to it.

Anyway, we're running in circles apparently so how about we end it here. Let's agree to disagree.

Sony expected not all gaas titles to be successfull from the start. Cancelations are very likely to have been taken into consideration.

Also, it's an investment to diversify their 1st party library and they only need a few successful live service titles to make up for any of the other losses.

Edit:

Yes, we should leave it at this. No harms done.

 

[Fake]

Some folks need to move on.

 

[FoxMcChief]

Some folks need to move on.

Not when Xbox must pay for this crime!

 

[dottme]

Teams will submit was is going to get approved. If you reject every single player game because you think it won't work but accept all the GaaS game, then you don't force them but every team will just submit GaaS pitch to management.
Nobody like to work on pitch while they are 90% sure it's going to get rejected.

 

[Bumblebeetuna]

Damn, another reminder that Sony canceled LoU Online but released doodoo like Concord

 

[mckmas8808]

A distinction without a difference. "Teams see the direction the company is heading."

I guess they just self-censor their own pitches? Okay I guess.

That's not how that works LOL!!!

 

[adamsapple]

Damn, another reminder that Sony canceled LoU Online but released doodoo like Concord

Many would have been happy if they just tacked along a smaller version of it as DLC or part of the TLoU Part 2 package, like the first game. Factions was received pretty decently IIRC.

 

[Punished Miku]

That's not how that works LOL!!!

Okay thanks LOL!@@$@#$^@#$!!!!

 

[Men_in_Boxes]

A distinction without a difference. "Teams see the direction the company is heading."

I guess they just self-censor their own pitches? Okay I guess.

Teams have always made games that PlayStation wanted them to make. That pressure has been there well before GAAS started at PlayStation. It's why their big studios don't make art games or MUDS.

 

[Punished Miku]

Teams have always made games that PlayStation wanted them to make. That pressure has been there well before GAAS started at PlayStation. It's why their big studios don't make art games or MUDS.

They used to make quite a few art games.

 

[Men_in_Boxes]

They used to make quite a few art games.

And they stopped because there was no market for it.

There's a reason why Santa Monica, Naughty Dog, Insomniac, and Sucker Punch all make 3rd person action games with cutscenes. There is / was a market for it.

They "self sensored" their VR ideas or dating sim ideas because they know how numbers work.

The narrative that studios were "forced to work on GAAS" was always childish.

 

[Punished Miku]

And they stopped because there was no market for it.

There's a reason why Santa Monica, Naughty Dog, Insomniac, and Sucker Punch all make 3rd person action games with cutscenes. There is / was a market for it.

They "self sensored" their VR ideas or dating sim ideas because they know how numbers work.

The narrative that studios were "forced to work on GAAS" was always childish.

I don't disagree that this is what they thought and decided about more art games and why. I just expect a platform holder to be the one willing to take more risks since they get that passive 30% income from all sales and online subs and have giant advantages in terms of marketing. They traditionally have viewed some projects more as an art grant to try and be creative and do weird things. Now it seems a lot more numbers driven.

So to put a bow on the conversation, they used to have a bit more freedom with their pitches seemingly just based on their library but this changed as budgets grew and Jim Ryan really seemed to solidify it as a new direction for their studios. There's a pretty obvious before and after.

 

[Men_in_Boxes]

I don't disagree that this is what they thought and decided about more art games and why. I just expect a platform holder to be the one willing to take more risks since they get that passive 30% income from all sales and online subs and have giant advantages in terms of marketing. They traditionally have viewed some projects more as an art grant to try and be creative and do weird things. Now it seems a lot more numbers driven.

So to put a bow on the conversation, they used to have a bit more freedom with their pitches seemingly just based on their library but this changed as budgets grew and Jim Ryan really seemed to solidify it as a new direction for their studios. There's a pretty obvious before and after.

You want risk, but reject GAAS, which everyone agrees is a riskier proposition and a model that encourages the birth of new IP.

I feel like people can't have it both ways.

 

[Punished Miku]

You want risk, but reject GAAS, which everyone agrees is a riskier proposition and a model that encourages the birth of new IP.

I feel like people can't have it both ways.

Creative risk and financial risk aren't the same thing. But yes, they both have the word risk in them so there's that.

GAAS have led to some new IPs though, no doubt, just not ones I'm interested in personally. There's some exceptions of course. I liked Splatoon and Exoprimal so I don't have some hard stance against never playing a GAAS game. They do tend to follow a similar formula though which I don't associate with being a creative risk.

 

[Bumblebeetuna]

Many would have been happy if they just tacked along a smaller version of it as DLC or part of the TLoU Part 2 package, like the first game. Factions was received pretty decently IIRC.

Factions was some of the best MP since the PS2 days until ND ruined it with pay to win DLC and microtransactions. Even afterwards, it was better than most MP games on the market.

 

[adamsapple]

You want risk, but reject GAAS, which everyone agrees is a riskier proposition and a model that encourages the birth of new IP.

I feel like people can't have it both ways.

Risk in terms of different varied styles of games and experiences, not risk in terms of having multiple teams work on live service model games.

 

[bitbydeath]

We knew this, I’ve corrected people on it many times.

 

[Men_in_Boxes]

Risk in terms of different varied styles of games and experiences, not risk in terms of having multiple teams work on live service model games.

Risk in terms of "What's going to work in the market?"

Spider-Man 3 and God of War Egypt are widget games. They can pump those out with very little creative risk taking and they'll sell 10 plus million with relative ease (I think). If you're making a GAAS title in 2025, you have to think deeply about what's going to work and what's going to get people engaged long term. Widgets die in GAAS.

 

[RickMasters]

Some people also thought the character designs for Concord were amazing.

You know, making the game they really wanted to make.

Those designs were as bad as apex legends. And I hate all the characters in that game.

It's budget allocated to gaas games which could have been budget allocated to sp games.

Some of their internal studios were closed because of the gaas focus . Bends last game sold like 10m copies. It was their first console release after 10 years. I would rate bend over GG any day. Holly shit dissmissing bend and Blutpoint like that to defend their shitty mangement.

Yup…. Once that money is gone, it’s gone. Unless their SP games suddenly sell gang busters. You got 75 million PS own owners and a game like spider man with 300 million budget only gonna appeal to to 2 million of them.


People can say what they want but money talks at the end of the day.


To paraphrase an old hustlers quote “where this change goes ….. is wherever this game goes”


You can’t blame them for looking at where the industry is going and reacting to it. Problem is things like fortnight and palworld only gappen once one while. These companies are still struggling with gauging gen z spending habits….. and the frightening part for them is it does not reside with their old business model. So tyhwy will continue to chase this bag until Sony games are what sits in the charts for player engagement ( which leads to continued spending…. Which is what these games companies want)

 

[Fabieter]

Those designs were as bad as apex legends. And I hate all the characters in that game.



Yup…. Once that money is gone, it’s gone. Unless their SP games suddenly sell gang busters. You got 75 million PS own owners and a game like spider man with 300 million budget only gonna appeal to to 2 million of them.


People can say what they want but money talks at the end of the day.


To paraphrase an old hustlers quote “where this change goes ….. is wherever this game goes”


You can’t blame them for looking at where the industry is going and reacting to it. Problem is things like fortnight and palworld only gappen once one while. These companies are still struggling with gauging gen z spending habits….. and the frightening part for them is it does not reside with their old business model. So tyhwy will continue to chase this bag until Sony games are what sits in the charts for player engagement ( which leads to continued spending…. Which is what these games companies want)

Obviously they want to find away to keep selling low effort skins for 90 bucks instead of full games for 70 bucks. Somehow alot of people think skins are worth more than entire games. Weird industry.

 

[adamsapple]

Spider-Man 3 and God of War Egypt are widget games. They can pump those out with very little creative risk taking and they'll sell 10 plus million with relative ease (I think). If you're making a GAAS title in 2025, you have to think deeply about what's going to work and what's going to get people engaged long term. Widgets die in GAAS.

Consider this, if widgets die in GAAS, just how badly did that one GAAS game died for Sony that it led them to pivot their future pipeline and start canceling their live service games en-masse, and pledge more of those widget games.

Doesn't look like future risks are that worth it for them anymore.

 

[RickMasters]

Obviously they want to find away to keep selling low effort skins for 90 bucks instead of full games for 70 bucks. Somehow alot of people think skins are worth more than entire games. Weird industry.

And you can tell some of them skins are just made by AI. Just messy looking stuff. I bought the swat outfit for my operator because it was the only thing that didn’t look, crazybut still kind of tough looking. Not buying anymore for COD. I might grab a battle pass from time to time if they got something cool , but no way I’m spending too much money on COD.

 

[Men_in_Boxes]

Consider this, if widgets die in GAAS, just how badly did that one GAAS game died for Sony that it led them to pivot their future pipeline and start canceling their live service games en-masse, and pledge more of those widget games.

Doesn't look like future risks are that worth it for them anymore.

That's all fake narrative fed to you by your farmers.

I'll question the live service push after we see the crop, and not a day before. I get why certain personality types would judge the crop before the harvest though.

 

[adamsapple]

That's all fake narrative fed to you by your farmers.

Hard to call it a fake narrative when we're seeing the results in front of our eyes. The GaaS projects are getting canceled one after another, just a few weeks ago both Bend and Bluepoint's were canceled. The farmer didn't feed us the narrative, the farmer took the two out back and put a slug in their heads.

 

[Fabieter]

And you can tell some of them skins are just made by AI. Just messy looking stuff. I bought the swat outfit for my operator because it was the only thing that didn’t look, crazybut still kind of tough looking. Not buying anymore for COD. I might grab a battle pass from time to time if they got something cool , but no way I’m spending too much money on COD.

I get games who sell skins for 5 bucks tops but only if you also can get skins without paying at all. Most of those games are just cheap money grabs. If the future is srsly heading there than we deserve another crash.

 

[Men_in_Boxes]

Hard to call it a fake narrative when we're seeing the results in front of our eyes. The GaaS projects are getting canceled one after another, just a few weeks ago both Bend and Bluepoint's were canceled. The farmer didn't feed us the narrative, the farmer took the two out back and put a slug in their heads.

It's a fake narrative because it doesn't illustrate PlayStations level of commitment into GAAS. We'll know much more in May, when they do their business briefings again.

They still have roughly 7 GAAS titles in the pipeline. That's likely more GAAS titles releasing on PS5 for the rest of the generation than AAA SP exclusives from PlayStation Studios. A farmer plants a handful of seeds in each hole for a reason, and it's not because he thinks every seed will sprout.

 

[adamsapple]

They still have roughly 7 GAAS titles in the pipeline. That's likely more GAAS titles releasing on PS5 for the rest of the generation than AAA SP exclusives from PlayStation Studios. A farmer plants a handful of seeds in each hole for a reason, and it's not because he thinks every seed will sprout.

Let's not count eggs before they hatch. A year go we thought there would be ~10 GAAS games, in 2023 we thought there would be 12 GAAS games out by the end of fiscal 2025 and we both know that shit ain't happening.

 

[Fabieter]

It's a fake narrative because it doesn't illustrate PlayStations level of commitment into GAAS. We'll know much more in May, when they do their business briefings again.

They still have roughly 7 GAAS titles in the pipeline. That's likely more GAAS titles releasing on PS5 for the rest of the generation than AAA SP exclusives from PlayStation Studios. A farmer plants a handful of seeds in each hole for a reason, and it's not because he thinks every seed will sprout.

When they do release . Fargame is gonna be next to be axed.

 

[Hero of Spielberg]

That's right, big smile, you want to be making this GaaS. Everybody's happy.