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REAL Media Create Charts: 24 - 30 July

Rhythm Tengoku is completely sold out in Akihabara :'(

same for DSL
used DSL > new PSP -_-

luckly there are still some Bit Generations available


i don't understand why report from sinobi (?) site said Gundam PSP was sold out, i said many copies yesterday...
 
Jokeropia said:
What the hell? It's not that ioi disagrees with MD/Dengeki/Famitsu, it's that he uses an average of all three. Nothing wrong with that, IMO.Eh? He doesn't present them as fact anymore than anyone else does. Just because you don't post a disclaimer saying that they are estimates every freaking time (is this ever done in these MD threads? No, instead there are often discussions about statistically negligible differences in people's cumulative totals) it doesn't mean you pass them off as fact, especially considering that they are rounded. Surely you understand why a rounded number is less likely to be construed as exact than one that is written out to single digits?

Except that ioi is not in the POSITION to say "these are the numbers". He is not a professional analyst, and I'm disturbed that people actually defend him as if he were one.

So because I say I want him to actually for once say on his page clear as day that these are estimates, I'm demanding that he say it every other sentence? Christ, what is with you? You act as if ioi is sacred, and defend him to the end of the Earth from people pointing out that he isn't a professional analyst, his sales don't hold weight and how he might as well tell people to **** off and stop complaining that his bullshit is tricking people into thinking that his figures are actually worth more than the bytes it took to type them.

And - hh yeah, I mean, totally! At no point did he spew bullshit when he said that the list of copies shipped for Nintendo DS games were actually how many copies those games sold!
 

Dalthien

Member
Moor-Angol said:
i don't understand why report from sinobi (?) site said Gundam PSP was sold out, i said many copies yesterday...
Well, we should wait and see how the sales turn out. Remember the 1st day sales for Tekken PSP were said to be 50k, but then the first week sales came in and they didn't even reach 50k for the first week. The numbers that Neo gives for MC weekly sales has been very accurate, but the 1st day sales estimates have been more spotty. We'll know soon enough...
 

Jonnyram

Member
There's lots of good arguments being made both for and against ioi's theories. I also appreciate the effort that ioi puts into making all this happen, but my personal opinion is that his effort is wasted because of the inaccuracy of the data. This may be a clever way to avoid copyright issues, since his data doesn't match any of the research groups', but that's not my concern.

The main cause of inaccuracy is the theory that shipped = sold. This is surely true for a number of games, but it is also totally untrue for a number of other games. I'll show two opposite examples to make my point. One is the successful game with long legs that hangs around the bottom half of the top 50 for a few years. Shipped =/= sold in this case, because stores have a large amount of stock of said game. When the game does eventually stop selling, the stock remains in stores. You can go into a store in Japan and find multiple copies of games like Super Mario Sunshine, Super Smash Bros., Final Fantasy X, Dragon Quest VIII.

The second example is the failure. Lots of orders are made by stores, lots of copies are pressed, and right now, the unsold software is sitting in storage somewhere, waiting to be either sold off at ridiculously cheap prices some day in the future, or disposed of entirely. If a 7000 yen game is sold off for 500 yen to get rid of stock, should its sales be counted at the same rate as a full price game? The research groups can't really track this data, as it's spurious, so it's not covered anyway, but equating shipped with sold will include junk like this, which demeans the value of the data.

With these points made, I focus again on ioi's data. He has stated himself, that his figures are an average of the different research groups' adjusted to be closer to shipment figures. This "adjustment" may work for companies that supply their shipment figures, but for those that don't, this "adjustment" is nothing more than a blind assumption. Not only is this adjustment based on an idea that is incorrect (that sales = shipments), but it's being applied uniform across the board for games that he doesn't have shipment data for.

The people who don't put faith in ioi's data, the people who like to follow Media Create, or Enterbrain, or MediaWorks data do so because it is a single path of accuracy - any errors Media Create or whoever will make, will be relative only to that path, and can be spotted when compared with other researchers. Significant figures are counted because we like the only data source we have to be as accurate as possible. Get sloppy and mistakes multiply, making bigger discrepancies in the data.

I personally just feel that ioi's efforts would be so much more useful if he actually directed them towards accuracy. As it stands now, ioi makes his own numbers using his own theories and they cannot be relied upon. The DS life to date thread showed that even using his 5%+ mechanism, some of his data is still less than Media Create has on file. This is even after he's included his "adjustment" to bring sales closer to shipments. How can the data be relied upon when discrepancies like this occur. He just has no way to track sales of games when they've fallen from the charts, so the adjustment is not compensating correctly. People who follow the raw data from Media Create simply wait until we have an opportunity to see the current data, rather than making blind assumptions.

Long post, I know. I just felt like clarifying my stance on ioi's work.
His self-promotion is another thing entirely ;)
 
LTTP, you need an ice cream, coffee, cigarette, or whatever the hell it is that you can use to CALM DOWN.

Good lord, ioi runs a fan site with estimated sales number for GAMES, not the official count of who will or won't get into Heaven. And the information of where his numbers come from are readily available.

Seriously, the only valid criticism you've made is that this is a Media-Create thread, hence other numbers are inappropriate. But go back and count how many times NPD numbers, or worldwide estimates have come up in these threads, and then GET A GRIP.

All videogame sales numbers are estimates. ioi is more forthcoming than the PROFESSIONALS you keep yelling about as to where his data comes from and how he manipulates it. Ask NPD for their sources and formulas and see how far you get.

Oh, and remind me to tell you the story of how NPD's inaccurate (and later retracted) sales numbers helped get the Xbox bandwagon rolling. :lol
 

CoolTrick

Banned
This "adjustment" may work for companies that supply their shipment figures, but for those that don't, this "adjustment" is nothing more than a blind assumption. Not only is this adjustment based on an idea that is incorrect (that sales = shipments), but it's being applied uniform across the board for games that he doesn't have shipment data for.

Leave it to one of the best posters on the board to deliver the final punch.

ioi, you can write however many page long explanations as to your theory as you'd like, but there is simply no way you can predict sales for games that have fallen off the charts.

Looking at trends is nice to predict, not to confirm as sales data.
 

cvxfreak

Member
Jonnyram, do you think there's any official correspondence between the three trackers? We also had Oricon in one the game for awhile but they're gone now.
 
Leondexter said:
LTTP, you need an ice cream, coffee, cigarette, or whatever the hell it is that you can use to CALM DOWN.

Good lord, ioi runs a fan site with estimated sales number for GAMES, not the official count of who will or won't get into Heaven. And the information of where his numbers come from are readily available.

Seriously, the only valid criticism you've made is that this is a Media-Create thread, hence other numbers are inappropriate. But go back and count how many times NPD numbers, or worldwide estimates have come up in these threads, and then GET A GRIP.

All videogame sales numbers are estimates. ioi is more forthcoming than the PROFESSIONALS you keep yelling about as to where his data comes from and how he manipulates it. Ask NPD for their sources and formulas and see how far you get.

Oh, and remind me to tell you the story of how NPD's inaccurate (and later retracted) sales numbers helped get the Xbox bandwagon rolling. :lol

Oh, thank you for reminding me that NPD =/= infallible! That's so shocking that they have made mistakes in their entire history.

Oh, and yeah, I forgot that it's not a valid complaint that ioi is knowingly corrupting people with bullshit. "Well, he's more forthcoming with how he gets his information". Well, if I say that I pull my sales estimates out of my ass, does that make me more forthcoming than NPD? Jonnyram did a fine job saying why ioi's method of acquiring data is flawed and why his numbers are not worth as much. NPD gets paid to collect data, and being more forthcoming doesn't make his figures somehow more reliable. A valid complaint is that he doesn't bother to clearly mark his figures as estimates. Because of him, the entire article is ****ed up and needs to be recreated. People assume that vgcharts is a reliable source, and he isn't.
 

cvxfreak

Member
Proof that shipped =/= sold, even after years:

aki2.jpg


Lots and lots and lots of Japanese game stores are like that.
 
A Link to the Past said:
Oh, thank you for reminding me that NPD =/= infallible! That's so shocking that they have made mistakes in their entire history.

Oh, and yeah, I forgot that it's not a valid complaint that ioi is knowingly corrupting people with bullshit. "Well, he's more forthcoming with how he gets his information". Well, if I say that I pull my sales estimates out of my ass, does that make me more forthcoming than NPD? Jonnyram did a fine job saying why ioi's method of acquiring data is flawed and why his numbers are not worth as much. NPD gets paid to collect data, and being more forthcoming doesn't make his figures somehow more reliable. A valid complaint is that he doesn't bother to clearly mark his figures as estimates. Because of him, the entire article is ****ed up and needs to be recreated. People assume that vgcharts is a reliable source, and he isn't.

Like I said, he runs a fan site. You're taking this way too seriously.
And in my experience, he DOES clearly say his numbers are estimates or even educated guesses.
I've seen him come forward with the data he has for a game that's being discussed and say what is 'official' and from what source, what is estimated and how, what is shipped, and where he got each one. It has never seemed to me that he's trying to pull the wool over anyone's eyes. Just the fact that Jonnyram can make such a lengthy post about how he comes up with his numbers shows that he's not trying to fool people.

It just seems like you have a bug up your ass that anyone would attempt to do what he's doing with incomplete data, ignoring the fact that GAF has NEVER had complete sales data of even a single game, and never will. It's hypocritical, because it's just a matter of degrees.
 
Leondexter said:
Like I said, he runs a fan site. You're taking this way too seriously.
And in my experience, he DOES clearly say his numbers are estimates or even educated guesses.
I've seen him come forward with the data he has for a game that's being discussed and say what is 'official' and from what source, what is estimated and how, what is shipped, and where he got each one. It has never seemed to me that he's trying to pull the wool over anyone's eyes. Just the fact that Jonnyram can make such a lengthy post about how he comes up with his numbers shows that he's not trying to fool people.

It just seems like you have a bug up your ass that anyone would attempt to do what he's doing with incomplete data, ignoring the fact that GAF has NEVER had complete sales data of even a single game, and never will. It's hypocritical, because it's just a matter of degrees.

So basically, the fact that he runs a fan site means that no matter what he says, it's suddenly okay? Stop being such a freaking brown noser. You don't even read what anyone says.

And yes, ioi has said - on NeoGAF ONLY - that his sales are estimates. Never on his site. So the fact that he isn't trying to fool anyone in particular protects him from the fact that it's painfully obvious that his numbers are being interpreted as fact and doing nothing about it.

And yes, I guess it is hypocrytical to hold professionals higher than, well, bottom of the barrel analysts that hold no legitimacy in the gaming industry. ioi lost ANY right to say that he's not trying to fool anyone when he made a topic about shipped figures and said that they were sales figures.
 

Fuzzy

I would bang a hot farmer!
You people are still arguing about ioi's numbers? This is why I don't post any more.


Actually, I got a job as an Electrician Apprentice and don't have as much free time any more.
 
A Link to the Past said:
So basically, the fact that he runs a fan site means that no matter what he says, it's suddenly okay? Stop being such a freaking brown noser. You don't even read what anyone says.

And yes, ioi has said - on NeoGAF ONLY - that his sales are estimates. Never on his site. Christ, stop being an idiot. So the fact that he isn't trying to fool anyone in particular protects him from the fact that it's painfully obvious that his numbers are being interpreted as fact and doing nothing about it.

And yes, I guess it is hypocrytical to hold professionals higher than, well, bottom of the barrel analysts that hold no legitimacy in the gaming industry. ioi lost ANY right to say that he's not trying to fool anyone when he made a topic about shipped figures and said that they were sales figures.

I'm brown nosing? I couldn't care less about his site or his numbers. I'm only defending him because you're being such a dick. Plainly, you won't be satisfied until his site's splash page is "MY NUMBERS ARE FAKE!".
 

Mario

Sidhe / PikPok
Leondexter said:
Plainly, you won't be satisfied until his site's splash page is "MY NUMBERS ARE FAKE!".

All I see ALTTP asking for is for ioi to cite data sources and/or define his methology on his site which seems a reasonable request. Depending on the context of how ioi's numbers are used by individuals using his information, the resultant data or conclusions could be very wrong/misleading.

Why ioi is happy to make admissions on these forums but seems reluctant to put the methodology up on his site seems strange.

As it stands, I just rely on NPD and Media Create myself, and wouldn't use ioi's numbers for any serious analysis until I get a better understanding of how they are put together.
 
Leondexter said:
I'm brown nosing? I couldn't care less about his site or his numbers. I'm only defending him because you're being such a dick. Plainly, you won't be satisfied until his site's splash page is "MY NUMBERS ARE FAKE!".

Well shucks, you caught me - when I said that I want him to not parade his numbers as factual information, I was actually lying. What I really meant was that I want him to start saying they're fake. It couldn't be the former; I mean, what lunatic would ever think that when I say I want him to stop spreading bullshit, I mean that I want him to stop spreading bullshit?

Unsarcastic:

What the **** are you even trying to say? At what point did I indicate that I would not be satisfied if he stopped being a douchebag by allowing people to be misled by him (which can be done by him saying "these are estimates")?

Fella, I'm not going to stop attacking him just because I'm acting like a dick. When he stops acting like an ass and spreading bullshit as if it were real figures, then I'll stop attacking him, because there would nothing to attack him for.
 

JJConrad

Sucks at viral marketing
A Link to the Past said:
So basically, the fact that he runs a fan site means that no matter what he says, it's suddenly okay? Stop being such a freaking brown noser. You don't even read what anyone says.

And yes, ioi has said - on NeoGAF ONLY - that his sales are estimates. Never on his site. Christ, stop being an idiot. So the fact that he isn't trying to fool anyone in particular protects him from the fact that it's painfully obvious that his numbers are being interpreted as fact and doing nothing about it.

And yes, I guess it is hypocrytical to hold professionals higher than, well, bottom of the barrel analysts that hold no legitimacy in the gaming industry. ioi lost ANY right to say that he's not trying to fool anyone when he made a topic about shipped figures and said that they were sales figures.
Why are you so worked up over this? Do you realise that you are busting your nuts over a 1 or 2 percent difference in numbers?

MC and Famitsu often have differences in the hundreds of thousands. They are both professional sets of numbers. They both present their numbers as facts. So how do you determine which chart is correct?

They are both wrong. Their value is not in their accuracy, but in the assumed consistancy. They're only good for measuring how a game sells within its own demographic and as a vague measure between platforms. If you use any of the professional numbers to count totals and compare sales in detail then you are a fool.

You may not like ioi's methods, but he too is as consistant as the professional sources. He doesn't just make numbers up. Don't use his numbers for exact totals, if you like, but don't give us any crazed rants that his numbers are useless. They are as close to accurate as any source you can name and they are also the best free collection of sales information that we have.

Get off your high-horse about him trying to fool people, you're simply being silly. There is no reason why should have to give his exact methodology on his site. He makes no claims that his numbers are exact and outright says on his site that they are a collection of numbers from other sources. If some people are fooled into thinking that these are exact, then that is their problem and not his. He can't control how is numbers are used and reported. People are also fooled by NPD and the bitch-fests here at GAF over them prove it.
 
A Link to the Past said:
spreading bullshit as if it were real figures

Hmmm...seems to me I was dead on about you wanting him to admit his numbers are fake. You just said it, dummy.

By the way, define "real", I dare you.

Because what he is doing is regurgitating the same "real" figures you're speaking of. All he is doing is attempting to merge these "real" sources and fill in some of the gaps where they aren't available. I'm sure the "real" numbers are more accurate, but I wouldn't bet it's by a lot.

If NPD, Media-Create, Famitsu, or any other "real" source were willing to show how they calculate their numbers, I promise, it'd be a 50-page flame-fest over whether they're accurate or not. And we've had monthly EB, weekly Best Buy and hourly Amazon top tens in here as 'proof' of what's selling well. I don't recall you getting constipated over those numbers. There's no way ioi's numbers could be worse than those. Am I wrong? Maybe you do bitch and moan in the Amazon threads. If so, seriously, I'll leave you to it.
 
Leondexter said:
Hmmm...seems to me I was dead on about you wanting him to admit his numbers are fake. You just said it, dummy.

By the way, define "real", I dare you.

Because what he is doing is regurgitating the same "real" figures you're speaking of. All he is doing is attempting to merge these "real" sources and fill in some of the gaps where they aren't available. I'm sure the "real" numbers are more accurate, but I wouldn't bet it's by a lot.

If NPD, Media-Create, Famitsu, or any other "real" source were willing to show how they calculate their numbers, I promise, it'd be a 50-page flame-fest over whether they're accurate or not. And we've had monthly EB, weekly Best Buy and hourly Amazon top tens in here as 'proof' of what's selling well. I don't recall you getting constipated over those numbers. There's no way ioi's numbers could be worse than those. Am I wrong? Maybe you do bitch and moan in the Amazon threads. If so, seriously, I'll leave you to it.

Yeah, I mean, Best Buy is no better than ioi.

How about you actually bother to defend ioi with reality instead of taking words and twisting them?

I love how you enjoy to go back and sort through my posts to find something that can legitimize your claim that I won't rest until he has a logo on his website saying that his figures are fake, but never bother to *gasp* go back and take any single sentence where I said I want him to say that these are estimates.

...Wait, it makes perfect sense when you're trying to make your argument seem better. How about I help your argument - ioi's figures are fake and he should say it, I don't want him to say that they are estimates, I want him to advise people that he's a lying SOB.

There. I thought that you might be growing tired of taking things I say out of context, so there you go.

So in this entire thread, you haven't bothered to actually bring up the point that he should say that they are estimates. All you say is that because professional companies who pay people to do research on shipments and how much they've sold (aka, there actually IS truth to their figures) use estimates, that an unprofessional gamer is just as legitimate because he is able to take their figures, add them together and divide by three and can read the shipment reports given by various companies and stores can use estimates and knowingly deceive people into thinking that they are what the games have actually sold (and yes, by not telling them what these figures are is deceiving them, and practically refusing to tell them is knowingly deceiving them).

So tell me - why does NPD need to say how they got their figures as much as ioi? Why is ioi equal to these people who *gasp* don't sit on their ass all day in front of their computer while doing their job? NPD gets sales figures from most stores in America, with the exception of some including Wal Mart, which they estimate. ioi does not have equal consideration with these sales people. These people actually do research to find what games have sold, and do some estimates (not all, like ioi does). All ioi does is leech off of their figures and make nothing BUT estimates. How the Hell can he say that one game sold 250 copies one week? What kind of estimate is that? It's completely baseless.
 

osyrus

Member
ioi > alttp

:lol

seriously guys, arguing over the internet about this of all things is really sad...just drop it and let's prepare to fap over the new numbers to come in the next couple of days.
 
JJConrad said:
Why are you so worked up over this? Do you realise that you are busting your nuts over a 1 or 2 percent difference in numbers?

MC and Famitsu often have differences in the hundreds of thousands. They are both professional sets of numbers. They both present their numbers as facts. So how do you determine which chart is correct?

They are both wrong. Their value is not in their accuracy, but in the assumed consistancy. They're only good for measuring how a game sells within its own demographic and as a vague measure between platforms. If you use any of the professional numbers to count totals and compare sales in detail then you are a fool.

You may not like ioi's methods, but he too is as consistant as the professional sources. He doesn't just make numbers up. Don't use his numbers for exact totals, if you like, but don't give us any crazed rants that his numbers are useless. They are as close to accurate as any source you can name and they are also the best free collection of sales information that we have.

Get off your high-horse about him trying to fool people, you're simply being silly. There is no reason why should have to give his exact methodology on his site. He makes no claims that his numbers are exact and outright says on his site that they are a collection of numbers from other sources. If some people are fooled into thinking that these are exact, then that is their problem and not his. He can't control how is numbers are used and reported. People are also fooled by NPD and the bitch-fests here at GAF over them prove it.

For ****'s sake.

Did you hear that Nintendo is going third party?

Well, if you believed me, it's your fault. I mean, I don't have to say that I'm lying, it's your fault for thinking that I'm telling the truth.

And no, it's not a different situation, it's a different level on the same situation. While what I said was a lie, why is it their fault for believing that these numbers are the truth? It's not like them believing that they're real is that surprising. The fact of the matter is that it's not something he has to do, but he knows that not saying that they are estimates is causing confusion and causing people to think that these numbers are not estimated. You can say he doesn't have to put an advisory note up, but at no point should he not get flak for knowingly misleading people, arguing that it's their fault for being misled by what he says.

osyrus said:
ioi > alttp

:lol

seriously guys, arguing over the internet about this of all things is really sad...just drop it and let's prepare to fap over the new numbers to come in the next couple of days.

Of all things? Just because it's about video games does not change the fact that ioi's being an asshole and refusing to do something as simple as saying that his figures are estimates. Am I supposed to not think that there's a reason he doesn't want to make it apparent that these are estimates on his site?
 

ethelred

Member
God, ALTTP, you argue more obsessively and unrelentingly than Ami, and unlike him, you do it without any humor in your posts. You come across way too pissed off. Yeah, we get it, you've made your points, drop the anal fire ant routine.
 

duckroll

Member
Wow, usually I'm all for a good hearted nudge at ioi for taking himself too seriously..... but...... just wow. What the heck happened here. I think this thread desperately needs unconfirmed numbers before it turns into something darker. :lol
 
ethelred said:
God, ALTTP, you argue more obsessively and unrelentingly than Ami, and unlike him, you do it without any humor in your posts. You come across way too pissed off. Yeah, we get it, you've made your points, drop the anal fire ant routine.

I'm pissed off because of the fact that ioi seems to think that it's too much of a burden to put an advisory at the front of his page, I have to repair the entire best-selling games list on Wikipedia.
 

ethelred

Member
A Link to the Past said:
I'm pissed off because of the fact that ioi seems to think that it's too much of a burden to put an advisory at the front of his page, I have to repair the entire best-selling games list on Wikipedia.

Yeah, I know, I get it, but don't you think it's gone on long enough now? I mean, I have to echo ducky's "wow" here. Let it go, man. Let it go. :lol

All the points have been made and now you're just posting, like, a steady stream of pure vitriol. Number threads are supposed to be such happy affairs.
 

cvxfreak

Member
A Link to the Past said:
I'm pissed off because of the fact that ioi seems to think that it's too much of a burden to put an advisory at the front of his page, I have to repair the entire best-selling games list on Wikipedia.

There isn't a historical version you could have just reinstated?
 
cvxfreak said:
There isn't a historical version you could have just reinstated?

There is, but I have no idea when they began to use his numbers.

Anyway, yes, this has gone on for too long and I have gotten too terse with ioi. I know this is not a good excuse, but I have been uploading game data to the web site I work on for the past few days, and having to clean up his mess on Wikipedia annoyed me.

But still, ioi, you're an ass for not putting an advisory that says that your numbers are estimates (something so simple). If I could punch you, I'd probably feel better.

*frolics*
 
D

Deleted member 1235

Unconfirmed Member
A Link to the Past said:
Anyway, yes, this has gone on for too long and I have gotten too terse with ioi.

no you're being an outright offensive cock. make a better site. ioi gives a pretty good idea of what's going on with his site.
 
I agree with catfish. Link is being a complete ass toward ioi.

I appreciate ioi's work, and hope he continues. It's good stuff.

Besides, NPD, Media Create, Degenki, and all others ESTIMATE their data. I don't know why we put so much weight on Analyst sales data yet when it comes to ioi "Oh no! We can't fully trust those numbers!"
 
catfish said:
no you're being an outright offensive cock. make a better site. ioi gives a pretty good idea of what's going on with his site.

Yes, because I said that I was a better analyst than ioi. The only thing I ever asked was that he SAYS that his figures are estimates on the site. I could see you defending him against blind hatred towards his site. In fact, I like his site, because it's just fun to get a decent enough idea of how much a game might be selling. But I'm attacking him for, even after seeing evidence that his not putting up an advisory saying that his figures are estimates is causing people to think that they are sales figures. If he would add that, I would get off of his case. But he has more or less refused to do so.
 

ethelred

Member
The Abominable Snowman said:
I agree with catfish. Link is being a complete ass toward ioi.

I appreciate ioi's work, and hope he continues. It's good stuff.

Besides, NPD, Media Create, Degenki, and all others ESTIMATE their data. I don't know why we put so much weight on Analyst sales data yet when it comes to ioi "Oh no! We can't fully trust those numbers!"

Please stop trying to get in the last word in defense of ioi. You're just going to start this whole ****ing crockshit up again (also, you're incorrect -- oh, now see what happens when you try to get in the last word? so do other people too!). ALTTP already apologized and let it go, why try to drag this on further?

God.

A Link to the Past said:
Yes, because I said that I was a better analyst than ioi. The only thing I ever asked was that he SAYS that his figures are estimates on the site. I could see you defending him against blind hatred towards his site. In fact, I like his site, because it's just fun to get a decent enough idea of how much a game might be selling. But I'm attacking him for, even after seeing evidence that his not putting up an advisory saying that his figures are estimates is causing people to think that they are sales figures. If he would add that, I would get off of his case. But he has more or less refused to do so.


****. See what I mean? Thanks a lot, guys. :p
 
ethelred said:
Please stop trying to get in the last word in defense of ioi. You're just going to start this whole ****ing crockshit up again (also, you're incorrect -- oh, now see what happens when you try to get in the last word? so do other people too!). ALTTP already apologized and let it go, why try to drag this on further?
When have I been overly defensive of ioi?

Aside that, ALTTP has not apologized with a sincerity (Or at all), and had continued to act in his asinine ways apart from my response.

And point out anywhere where I was not stating an opinion that could be correctly identified as false or incorrect.

Perhaps you're just trying to turn to being the "Moral middle Ground" for the sake of your argument, where you generally agree with ALTTP. Instead of telling ALTTP to stop responding, you urge others to stop responding just so "your side" could end up being "Victorious", eh?

I don't even care that much about sales, but ioi's site is the best visual given to how games sell, and how they sell in comparison to others. Wikipedia isn't, and neither is it near complete.
 
A Link to the Past said:
Yes, because I said that I was a better analyst than ioi. The only thing I ever asked was that he SAYS that his figures are estimates on the site. I could see you defending him against blind hatred towards his site. In fact, I like his site, because it's just fun to get a decent enough idea of how much a game might be selling. But I'm attacking him for, even after seeing evidence that his not putting up an advisory saying that his figures are estimates is causing people to think that they are sales figures. If he would add that, I would get off of his case. But he has more or less refused to do so.

Since you're falling back to just that (as if you didn't say more, *cough* bullshit *cough*), maybe you should know I actually agree. He should say his numbers are estimated.

But on the other hand, Wikipedia and vgcharts SHOULD be best friends. They're both way less than accurate (at best), but still fairly decent references nonetheless.
 

duckroll

Member
Guys, this stupid episode started on Post #306 and now we're at like Post #386. Can we just chill and give it a rest? It's getting pretty ****ing lame.
 
Leondexter said:
Since you're falling back to just that (as if you didn't say more, *cough* bullshit *cough*), maybe you should know I actually agree. He should say his numbers are estimated.

But on the other hand, Wikipedia and vgcharts SHOULD be best friends. They're both way less than accurate (at best), but still fairly decent references nonetheless.

Except that Wikipedia is not less than accurate by design. Vgcharts, ioi refuses to point out that it is less than accurate and is less than accurate by design. Wikipedia strives to be as accurate as possible, and while vgcharts does not, it's by design - but he won't tell people on the site that it is that way.

The Abominable Snowman said:
When have I been overly defensive of ioi?

Aside that, ALTTP has not apologized with a sincerity (Or at all), and had continued to act in his asinine ways apart from my response.

And point out anywhere where I was not stating an opinion that could be correctly identified as false or incorrect.

Perhaps you're just trying to turn to being the "Moral middle Ground" for the sake of your argument, where you generally agree with ALTTP. Instead of telling ALTTP to stop responding, you urge others to stop responding just so "your side" could end up being "Victorious", eh?

I don't even care that much about sales, but ioi's site is the best visual given to how games sell, and how they sell in comparison to others. Wikipedia isn't, and neither is it near complete.

Wtf are you talking about? He told me to stop. Christ, stop getting defensive.
 

ethelred

Member
The Abominable Snowman said:
When have I been overly defensive of ioi?

Aside that, ALTTP has not apologized with a sincerity (Or at all), and had continued to act in his asinine ways apart from my response.

And point out anywhere where I was not stating an opinion that could be correctly identified as false or incorrect.

Perhaps you're just trying to turn to being the "Moral middle Ground" for the sake of your argument, where you generally agree with ALTTP. Instead of telling ALTTP to stop responding, you urge others to stop responding just so "your side" could end up being "Victorious", eh?

I don't even care that much about sales, but ioi's site is the best visual given to how games sell, and how they sell in comparison to others. Wikipedia isn't, and neither is it near complete.

I did tell ALTTP to stop. I even said he was engaging in an anal fire ant routine.

I think this whole thing has gone on way too long and I think posting right after ALTTP said he would stop and saying "Yeah and ALTTP is wrong and ioi is right" was just trying to get the last word in and fanning the flames of this ****ing stupid gone-on-for-too-long BS so that it (predictably) started right back up again.
 
I really like ioi's data. It's impossible to get accurate data and that's why we have these discrepencies. He uses his best judgement and uses multiple sources. I don't think anyone here takes his numbers as the word of God, but i'd be dissapointed if he stopped posting them. What i'm saying is that they are the best thing we've got and i'm glad he does what he does.
 

ethelred

Member
parathod said:
I really like ioi's data. It's impossible to get accurate data and that's why we have these discrepencies. He uses his best judgement and uses multiple sources. I don't think anyone here takes his numbers as the word of God, but i'd be dissapointed if he stopped posting them. What i'm saying is that they are the best thing we've got and i'm glad he does what he does.

Sigh.
 
ethelred said:
I did tell ALTTP to stop. I even said he was engaging in an anal fire ant routine.

I think this whole thing has gone on way too long and I think posting right after ALTTP said he would stop and saying "Yeah and ALTTP is wrong and ioi is right" was just trying to get the last word in and fanning the flames of this ****ing stupid gone-on-for-too-long BS so that it (predictably) started right back up again.
Stop putting words in my mouth. I didn't say ioi was right or ALTTP was wrong, and hardly read anything ioi posted in this thread at all (Because I usually skip to the end of long topics.)

However, I'm not going to discredit his work. It's very good stuff.

And if ALTTP said he would stop, then he lied. Either way, he's been way too virulent towards someone else over practically nothing. I wasn't trying to get the last word in, I'm stating my opinion. My intention wasn't going tit for tat against two people who apparently feel much more strongly over this than I do.
 
The Abominable Snowman said:
Stop putting words in my mouth. I didn't say ioi was right or ALTTP was wrong, and hardly read anything ioi posted in this thread at all (Because I usually skip to the end of long topics.)

However, I'm not going to discredit his work. It's very good stuff.

And if ALTTP said he would stop, then he lied. Either way, he's been way too virulent towards someone else over practically nothing. I wasn't trying to get the last word in, I'm stating my opinion. My intention wasn't going tit for tat against two people who apparently feel much more strongly over this than I do.

And I bet you're so much better for exasperating the situation.

I continuously say, "why does ioi refuse to say that they are estimates?" and the most I ever get from someone is them dancing around it or saying that he's not obligated to do so.
 
I hate to ride a dead horse, but it becomes a problem with massively viewed sites such as Wikipedia are spreading the numbers without letting people know they are estimates.

Therefore there will be a whole bunch of people running around thinking they have correct numbers, when in fact, they are basically just guesses, whether you try to look at trends or not.

The main concern of mine is with the "OTHER" numbers for the Gamecube and DS titles. There's no way he could accurately get the sales trends/estimates for those titles, so it just turns out to be WAGs and thereby misleading, especially in regards to million sellers and profit etc.

Oh well...
 

heavenly

Member
Irregardless, ioi wins the battle because ALLP is getting all worked up over this for nothing. It's not that serious. ioi's site is better than yours. Let's see your site?
 
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