Support NeoGAF

[holygeesus]

Well no, we have had displays with much better motion than the OLEDs for years now.
Sony's LCDs with the impulse motionflow are one example of that.
OLED has great contrast but motion is a clear step backwards from those displays.
The thing I care about most in a TV is how it handles games. I want that contrast but I'm not going to buy an OLED TV to get worse motion than I have now.
OLED has the potential to have some of the best motion because its response times are so low, but the screens need to get a lot brighter and have to flicker.

The OLED range are not being sold as gaming monitors though. The motion looks fine to me, as someone who has come from a world of plasma-owning. No trails or smearing. You get typical 24fps judder during films, unless you engage TrueMotion, but on the whole, this notorious 'motion problem' is a myth being spread by people who have either no experience with them, or have only seen them in-store, set up incorrectly.

 

[George Claw M.D.]

So you're never going to buy one? TVs get better every year.

Nah. I'm definitely gonna buy one next year. My need for a new TV just came late enough in the year that I decided to see what CES brings. If I needed a new TV earlier in the year, I'd probably have the C6 already.

But that's not always true. TV improvements halted for a time after Pioneer exited the PDP business. Or at least, others were still playing catchup to where Pioneer was when they left.

 

[offtopic]

...your PS4 Pro comes with a high-speed HDMI cable.

Yes, but I have a 8-10' run through the wall to my mounted set. I could have tested using the included cable but by that time I was pretty convinced it had to be the cable and I was near Frys so just went for it.

HDMI cables matter...just not something I had previously considered.

 

[sector4]

The OLED range are not being sold as gaming monitors though. The motion looks fine to me, as someone who has come from a world of plasma-owning. No trails or smearing. You get typical 24fps judder during films, unless you engage TrueMotion, but on the whole, this notorious 'motion problem' is a myth being spread by people who have either no experience with them, or have only seen them in-store, set up incorrectly.

Isn't that just the key? When it comes to this sort of stuff what is acceptable for some people may not be for others. Some people might not even be able to notice something that someone else can't ignore. Then add in the difficulty of actually conveying what one person is seeing to another person who might not be able to even see it, and it's hard to get anywhere with a discussion on this sort of thing.

You don't have to look too far, even on this forum of hardcore gamers, to find people who can't tell the difference between 30fps and 60fps, so how can you expect every single person to be able to pick up on smaller issues relating to displays.

 

[DOT DASH DOT]

I got to 1850 before the box disappeared :O I was very impressed with how good it looks, the sun pouring into the kitchen through the venetian blinds looks awesome! That calibration at the start is great, hopefully more games follow suit, rather than the more ambiguous sliders.

1850! You greedy bugger! Leave some HDR slider for others will you! Haha

Yeah it's great how Capcom have implemented the HDR controls, it's how it should be done.

 

[Unknown Soldier]

When in game mode on the Z9D the only Motionflow option available is custom, and you can adjust the clear setting, that's it. All the other modes (Standard, Clear, PureCinema etc) are not available.

Cool, this is interesting.

Just by way of background, it looks like Sony has switched to the same style of motion compensation that Samsung uses, with 2 sliders: Clear and Smooth.

Clear concerns the amount of image persistence reset used, that involves black frame insertion and at the highest setting backlight strobing on some models.

Smooth is of course the amount of MCFI (Motion-Compensated Frame Interpolation), the infamous "soap-opera effect" that artificially creates frames to boost apparent motion resolution at the cost of artifacts and a generally artificial appearance.

So, if you could try setting Clear all the way to the max, I wonder if the Z9D does have backlight strobing in Game Mode when you do this. If it does, you will immediately notice the flickering of the image, much like an old-school CRT. Some people will get a headache from this, the same people who got headaches from CRTs. You will also notice a dramatic and incredible boost in apparent motion resolution, up to a full 1080 lines of a 1080p moving test pattern. As I mentioned before, this is how Lightboost works on those 120/144hz gaming monitors. Backlight strobing is the most important thing you can do to improve LCD motion resolution, you need absolutely no MCFI whatsoever to gain 100% motion resolution if it is implemented correctly.

Similarly, by blinking the OLED pixels between each refresh, you can get the same image persistence reset and perfect motion resolution. No current consumer OLED display does this. Let's see if that changes in 2017.

 

[Theonik]

Similarly, by blinking the OLED pixels between each refresh, you can get the same image persistence reset and perfect motion resolution. No current consumer OLED display does this. Let's see if that changes in 2017.

Easier said than done, brightness will take a nosedive and unlike LCD that can just flicker the backlight to hide pixels switching the OLED needs to go from picture -> black -> picture flawlessly. And pretty much requires a panel that can work at 2x the input frequency

The other thing that LCDs can do that OLED cannot is overdrive the backlight on the strobe impulse. This would hurt the OLED panel immensely.

 

[simonski]

Easier said than done, brightness will take a nosedive and unlike LCD that can just flicker the backlight to hide pixels switching the OLED needs to go from picture -> black -> picture flawlessly. And pretty much requires a panel that can work at 2x the input frequency

The other thing that LCDs can do that OLED cannot is overdrive the backlight on the strobe impulse. This would hurt the OLED panel immensely.

How bright are VR headsets? They use sample and release don't they? I suppose they're a lot dimmer than TVs as you're basically looking at them in total darkness the whole time, but it seems it could be possible if manufacturers were interested.

 

[BumRush]

Maybe I'm projecting, but I think a lot of the people who point out flaws in LG OLEDs acknowledge that they're among the best if not the best displays available right now. At this price and quality tier, buyers are much more discerning than your average TV buyer. If I could have any mass produced TV right now, it would be an LG OLED. It's hands down the best picture quality I've ever seen in person. So why haven't I bought one at the relatively low prices they've dropped to lately? I'm waiting for 2017 OLEDs to see if LG or anyone else improve/fix outstanding issues, e.g., higher brightness, better input lag, better near-black performance, better motion handling, less image retention, etc.. I want the best to be even better.

You're right, most posts are. Some posts are making LG sets seem like absolute shit piled on great tech, and that's not true.

The advancements made from 2015 to 2016 are massive.

 

[Paragon]

The OLED range are not being sold as gaming monitors though. The motion looks fine to me, as someone who has come from a world of plasma-owning. No trails or smearing. You get typical 24fps judder during films, unless you engage TrueMotion, but on the whole, this notorious 'motion problem' is a myth being spread by people who have either no experience with them, or have only seen them in-store, set up incorrectly.

Yes, OLED has great response times so you don't get trails or smearing.
The problem with OLED is motion blur.
Anything moving quickly across the screen becomes a complete blur because they don't flicker at all.
That's why they have 0.1ms response times but only 300 lines of motion resolution in tests.
It's the same problem LCDs had years ago before they added black frame insertion and impulse backlight modes.

Easier said than done, brightness will take a nosedive and unlike LCD that can just flicker the backlight to hide pixels switching the OLED needs to go from picture -> black -> picture flawlessly. And pretty much requires a panel that can work at 2x the input frequency

That's exactly what you need to avoid.
If you refresh at 2x the source framerate, everything becomes a double-image when it moves across the screen.
Refresh rate has to be equal to framerate.

The other thing that LCDs can do that OLED cannot is overdrive the backlight on the strobe impulse. This would hurt the OLED panel immensely.

The thing with OLED is that it can get quite bright when you light up a small amount of the panel, but dims a lot when you light up the full thing.
With the B6 that is 800 nits for 10%, and only 150 nits for 100% of the screen.

So you wouldn't need to overdrive the panel.
What you would do with is scan the image like a CRT where 10% or less of the screen is lit up at once, instead of strobing the whole screen on/off.
800 nits with a 10% height scanline would give you 80 nits brightness - a little bit less than the SDR spec of 100 nits.
If the new panels can do 1000 nits this year, you could meet the SDR spec while improving motion blur 10x.

So, if you could try setting Clear all the way to the max, I wonder if the Z9D does have backlight strobing in Game Mode when you do this. If it does, you will immediately notice the flickering of the image, much like an old-school CRT.

Unfortunately I think Sony removed the 60Hz Clear mode from all their new TVs and they only refresh at 120Hz now.

 

[watership]

Really disappointing to read all these issues with oled. So I'm going to stop reading and enjoy my new 55 B6. Because it's amazing.

 

[Kyoufu]

Is motion resolution something that people notice? I wouldn't have known about OLED's inferior motion resolution without reading about it here. Just curious if others can see it and whether they find it problematic or not.

 

[BumRush]

Is motion resolution something that people notice? I wouldn't have known about OLED's inferior motion resolution without reading about it here. Just curious if others can see it and whether they find it problematic or not.

I haven't but I haven't seen the Z9D next to an OLED yet. Would love to hear more about it though. I though OLEDs were supposed to handle motion resolution well...

 

[Weevilone]

I haven't but I haven't seen the Z9D next to an OLED yet. Would love to hear more about it though. I though OLEDs were supposed to handle motion resolution well...

They are sample and hold like LCDs so that hurts it for sure. Plasma was the gold standard in recent years, as they didn't need any tricks to keep the image from smearing on your retina.

OLED does have good response time though.

 

[Weevilone]

It's the same problem LCDs had years ago before they added black frame insertion and impulse backlight modes.

Seriously though, how many current LCDs are using black frame insertion and/or impulse backlight? And how many of those are doing so without excess dimming of the image or other picture anomalies like flicker? It's always seemed like a feature that had a great amount of promise, but fell short in implementation. It's one of the reasons I was always a plasma guy, but of course that's not an option any longer.

I went from a Kuro the 55E6P mostly because I can't buy a ZD9 in a 55 inch display. I'm satisfied and impressed. Is the motion as good as my Kuro? No, of course not. But it's worth every penny I paid and I can't wait to see where the technology goes from here. No matter what display I buy, there is and always will be some set of flaws that have to be tolerated.

 

[vpance]

So, if you could try setting Clear all the way to the max, I wonder if the Z9D does have backlight strobing in Game Mode when you do this. If it does, you will immediately notice the flickering of the image, much like an old-school CRT. Some people will get a headache from this, the same people who got headaches from CRTs. You will also notice a dramatic and incredible boost in apparent motion resolution, up to a full 1080 lines of a 1080p moving test pattern. As I mentioned before, this is how Lightboost works on those 120/144hz gaming monitors. Backlight strobing is the most important thing you can do to improve LCD motion resolution, you need absolutely no MCFI whatsoever to gain 100% motion resolution if it is implemented correctly.

I think I read a review somewhere that said BFI added a fair amount of lag on the Z9D. Not sure if it's the same for other TVs with strobing in general.

 

[BumRush]

They are sample and hold like LCDs so that hurts it for sure. Plasma was the gold standard in recent years, as they didn't need any tricks to keep the image from smearing on your retina.

OLED does have good response time though.

So the response time helps mitigate the issue?

 

[cooldawn]

Correct.

Also, see this thread when you get close to a purchase of an AVR,

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1275630

Cool, thanks. Subbed to that thread as well.

 

[Weevilone]

So the response time helps mitigate the issue?

No, I'm just saying people get response time and motion blur confused. The issue with sample and hold is that it's really your eye that's "creating" the blur. Since the pixels aren't strobing like a plasma, or refreshing like an old-school CRT, as your eye follows the object across screen it blurs on your retina. There are some discussions that explain it in great detail if you Google around. All the various work-arounds create some type of negative side effect. Interpolating frames gives us the soap-opera effect. Black frame insertion or strobing the backlight gives flickering and reduced brightness. It's hard to describe but the eye perceives the flicker and the image seems less tangible imo, it's hard to describe. There is something oddly uncomfortable about it for me. Some people felt this way about plasma flicker but I was never sensitive to it.

 

[holygeesus]

Yes, OLED has great response times so you don't get trails or smearing.
The problem with OLED is motion blur.

They don't suffer from motion blur at all per se, it is how our eyes perceive movement. It's a side effect of sample and hold. There are no trails on fast moving objects, nor smearing. See the review here http://uk.rtings.com/tv/reviews/lg/b6 or here http://www.hdtvtest.co.uk/news/oled65g6v-201608304343.htm and note the sections on motion in particular.

The only motion issue I've noticed is typical telecine judder on 24p material. The fast response time puts them leagues ahead of LCD no matter what the motion resolution. You aren't going to eliminate sample and hold without dimming what is already a not overly bright image, and I don't expect that to change any time soon.

 

[riflen]

I haven't but I haven't seen the Z9D next to an OLED yet. Would love to hear more about it though. I though OLEDs were supposed to handle motion resolution well...

Sample and hold is why motion resolution is not improved much with OLED displays. Now, you can interpolate, using a method to manufacture interim frames before the next real frame is ready, but this creates the soap-opera effect and causes massive latency. Another approach is black frame insertion, which dims the image significantly.

PC LCD monitors have been using backlight strobing to improve motion resolution for a few years now and I think the results to me are excellent. It too reduces brightness, but you can configure the better displays to mitigate that somewhat by adjusting the pulse width.
For games, the major downside is that your content update rate needs to match the strobe rate, or you get nasty judder. As strobing at 60 Hz isn't all that nice to look at for some people, you'll need content at higher rate than that to get the full benefits. Most displays I've looked into, support strobing at rates like 85, 100 and 120 Hz. Your frame rate must match whichever Hz rate you choose.

For recorded media (film/video), you could use 120 Hz with strobing. That way content at 24, 30 and 60 fps should look good.

For some idea of how advantageous strobing can be, load up this test in a web browser.

http://www.testufo.com/#test=photo&photo=toronto-map.png&pps=960&pursuit=0&height=0

On my 27" desktop monitor at 120 Hz with strobing and 960 pixels/sec speed, I can easily read the text labels on this map as it scrolls by. It's somewhat akin to reading text on a piece of paper being moved across your field of vision.

 

[BumRush]

Thanks for the sample and hold responses, guys. I love learning about TV technology in here...

 

[The Beard]

They don't suffer from motion blur at all per se, it is how our eyes perceive movement. It's a side effect of sample and hold. There are no trails on fast moving objects, nor smearing. See the review here http://uk.rtings.com/tv/reviews/lg/b6 or here http://www.hdtvtest.co.uk/news/oled65g6v-201608304343.htm and note the sections on motion in particular.

The only motion issue I've noticed is typical telecine judder on 24p material. The fast response time puts them leagues ahead of LCD no matter what the motion resolution. You aren't going to eliminate sample and hold without dimming what is already a not overly bright image, and I don't expect that to change any time soon.

Do the LG OLEDs have 24hz, 48hz, 96hz playback?

I'm not sure of the exact name for it, but my plasma let's me select one of those 3 options when I'm watching a 24fps BluRay.

 

[Paragon]

So the response time helps mitigate the issue?

Response time affects trailing/smearing.
Motion blur is caused by how long the TV holds a frame.
OLEDs hold each frame on-screen the entire time until the next frame is ready, which is why they have lots of motion blur.

They don't suffer from motion blur at all per se, it is how our eyes perceive movement.

We perceive it as having motion blur.
At 60 FPS these OLEDs have a Moving Picture Response Time (MPRT) of 17ms.
Displays that show very little motion blur have an MPRT of less than 1ms.

See the review here http://uk.rtings.com/tv/reviews/lg/b6 or here http://www.hdtvtest.co.uk/news/oled65g6v-201608304343.htm and note the sections on motion in particular.

Here's the motion blur image from that rtings review, which shows an MPRT of 17ms
The interpolation option on the OLED shows what an MPRT of 8ms looks like
Here's the strobe image from a Samsung LCD which I would estimate to have an MPRT of 4ms
And a Sony LCD in impulse mode with an MPRT that I would guess is 1ms

Seriously though, how many current LCDs are using black frame insertion and/or impulse backlight?

I'm not sure about current LCD TVs.
Nearly every G-Sync monitor, and many other gaming monitors use impulse backlights.
My TV has an impulse backlight, so I find it difficult to buy an OLED when that means there will be a lot more motion blur than I have now, even if there will be more contrast.
Dimming should be much less of a problem now that HDR is pushing display brightness to over 1500 nits.

And how many of those are doing so without excess dimming of the image or other picture anomalies like flicker?

"Excessive" dimming or flicker is subjective.
The G-Sync monitors give you control over how much dimming/flicker there is with a slider from 0-100.
TVs are usually more limited with only on/off options for some reason.
Flicker is the thing which removes motion blur, so you have to pick one, since interpolation is not suitable for gaming.

 

[holygeesus]

We perceive it as having motion blur.
At 60 FPS these OLEDs have a Moving Picture Response Time (MPRT) of 17ms.
Displays that show very little motion blur have an MPRT of less than 1ms.

Here's the motion blur image from that rtings review, which shows an MPRT of 17ms
The interpolation option on the OLED shows what an MPRT of 8ms looks like
Here's the strobe image from a Samsung LCD which I would estimate to have an MPRT of 4ms
And a Sony LCD in impulse mode with an MPRT that I would guess is 1ms

A still image isn't revealing what each set looks like in motion though. There are other artefacts associated with motion aside from just blurring. I'd take blurring, for example, over trailing or ghosting any day. I guess it just depends on what you are more tolerant of. Is that trailing in the last Sony image BTW or just edge enhancement?

 

[Weevilone]

"Excessive" dimming or flicker is subjective.

Excessive sample and hold motion blur is also subjective.

I think you'll find the current TV landscape to be lacking if BFI/impulse are important to you. I don't follow the LCD landscape super closely, but I wouldn't consider anything without low input lag and FALD.. and those are few and far between without even layering the BFI stuff on top. The G-Sync stuff is interesting in a proof of concept sort of way, but not helpful when TV shopping.

It's fun to talk about all this stuff, but when your TV breaks (as mine did) it's time to pick your poison. It doesn't matter what you wish someone was doing, or what you think might happen in the next couple of years. I chose the Vizio P series initially, but found it lacking in a couple ways I couldn't live with. I grabbed an OLED via the Ebay Adorama sale and have been satisfied. If Sony can make strides with OLED, or perhaps produce a 55" ZD9 equivalent that ticks all my boxes then my kids will be proud owners of an LG OLED to watch Hannah Montana in SD. I'm not holding my breath.

 

[Paragon]

A still image isn't revealing what each set looks like in motion though.

That's why the camera is moving to track a test pattern moving across the display in MPRT tests.

There are other artefacts associated with motion aside from just blurring. I'd take blurring, for example, over trailing or ghosting any day. I guess it just depends on what you are more tolerant of. Is that trailing in the last Sony image BTW or just edge enhancement?

There is trailing/smearing on both the LCDs if you look at the left of the red logo.
You can see a faint outline of the previous frame or two on them.
That's caused by LCD's slower response time. OLED doesn't have any of that.
But OLED has so much motion blur compared to the impulse LCDs.

Excessive sample and hold motion blur is also subjective.

I've only been hearing that recently from OLED owners.
Most people agree that MPRT tests are sound - though the way they were often marketed was not - and they have been in use for about 10 years now.

I think you'll find the current TV landscape to be lacking if BFI/impulse are important to you. I don't follow the LCD landscape super closely, but I wouldn't consider anything without low input lag and FALD.. and those are few and far between without even layering the BFI stuff on top.

Perhaps. But the point is that I'm not going to buy a 65" E6 OLED for $4000 to go backwards.
If they can fix the motion blur, I can overlook the rest.
Or even if they don't fix the motion blur but add support for variable refresh rates, I'd probably buy one.

The G-Sync stuff is interesting in a proof of concept sort of way, but not helpful when TV shopping.

G-Sync is more than a "proof of concept", it's been available for three years now and is only gaining popularity.
It's a real shame that there are no televisions with support for variable refresh rates yet.

 

[Weevilone]

G-Sync is more than a "proof of concept", it's been available for three years now and is only gaining popularity.
It's a real shame that there are no televisions with support for variable refresh rates yet.

The implementation on computer monitors serves to demonstrate that it could be done in the TV market, that's what I mean. I don't care how prevalent it is in the PC gaming space, as that's completely meaningless when you are buying a TV.

 

[shockdude]

Backlight strobing is pretty cool. I'm honestly impressed that my Vizio D50-D1 has that feature (Clear Action). The reduction in motion blur is pretty dramatic.

Without Clear Action:

With Clear Action:

It's obviously not perfect; the response time of the LCD panel itself can't keep up, which can result in artifacts from previous frames. Additionally, it increases input lag by 4ms, and honestly 60Hz flickering isn't very pleasant.
I personally leave Clear Action off most of the time, but I do experiment with it on occasion.

 

[holygeesus]

If Sony can make strides with OLED, or perhaps produce a 55" ZD9 equivalent that ticks all my boxes then my kids will be proud owners of an LG OLED to watch Hannah Montana in SD. I'm not holding my breath.

I'm unable to move to an LCD now. As good as the ZD9 is, having shop-demoed one only, I would still pick the LG every time. Both sets have pros and minuses though, so it's what you are more able to tolerate.

If there are noticeable improvements in the 2017 ranges, be it Sony or anyone else, I will definitely be upgrading even only having my B6 for a year, but I can't see me ever moving back to LCD.

Backlight strobing is pretty cool. I'm honestly impressed that my Vizio D50-D1 has that feature (Clear Action). The reduction in motion blur is pretty dramatic.

Without Clear Action:

With Clear Action:

It's obviously not perfect; the response time of the LCD panel itself can't keep up, which can result in artifacts from previous frames. Additionally, it increases input lag by 4ms, and honestly 60Hz flickering isn't very pleasant.
I personally leave Clear Action off most of the time, but I do experiment with it on occasion.

It would be interesting to see the LG OLED blur with TrueMotion enabled. I was actually quite impressed with the lack of obvious artefacts produced.

Edit : here's one.

 

[BumRush]

Rtings gave the B6 10/10 on motion blur and motion interpolation. What am I missing?

 

[shockdude]

Rtings gave the B6 10/10 on motion blur and motion interpolation. What am I missing?

A new review category that Rtings seems to have added recently called "Image Flicker," which deals with black frame insertion and backlight refresh rate.
The B6 gets a 4/10 in this category. The Vizio D50-D1 gets a 9.2/10.

 

[Weevilone]

A new review category that Rtings seems to have added recently called "Image Flicker," which deals with black frame insertion.
The B6 gets a 4/10 in this category. The Vizio D50-D1 gets a 9.2/10.

Interesting that they have added this, thanks.

The Vizio P series got a 6.8 on this because it flickers at 60Hz. When I had one it was a "hey neat" feature that I played with then turned off b/c it wasn't really usable.

 

[shockdude]

Interesting that they have added this, thanks.

The Vizio P series got a 6.8 on this because it flickers at 60Hz. When I had one it was a "hey neat" feature that I played with then turned off b/c it wasn't really usable.

It got a 6.8 because the default PWM refresh rate is 120Hz. The 1080p D-series has a PWM refresh rate of 480Hz. Both sets flicker at 60Hz.

 

[Crimson_Gold]

I went to a TV store in the area and saw the 75" Z9D in person. That thing is amazing. I was literally in awe. I went over to the OLED section and they still look as good as ever as well. I see why sector made his decision though. You really can't go wrong either way. OLED do have a better price though. I'm back to impatiently waiting for CES and news of what's next. I need price drops and donations. The donations can start now

 

[Theonik]

I went to a TV store in the area and saw the 75" Z9D in person. That thing is amazing. I was literally in awe. I went over to the OLED section and they still look as good as ever as well. I see why sector made his decision though. You really can't go wrong either way. OLED do have a better price though. I'm back to impatiently waiting for CES and news of what's next. I need price drops and donations. The donations can start now

I wish we got reviews for the 75" ZD9 then people would understand.

That's exactly what you need to avoid.
If you refresh at 2x the source framerate, everything becomes a double-image when it moves across the screen.
Refresh rate has to be equal to framerate.

The thing with OLED is that it can get quite bright when you light up a small amount of the panel, but dims a lot when you light up the full thing.
With the B6 that is 800 nits for 10%, and only 150 nits for 100% of the screen.

So you wouldn't need to overdrive the panel.
What you would do with is scan the image like a CRT where 10% or less of the screen is lit up at once, instead of strobing the whole screen on/off.
800 nits with a 10% height scanline would give you 80 nits brightness - a little bit less than the SDR spec of 100 nits.
If the new panels can do 1000 nits this year, you could meet the SDR spec while improving motion blur 10x.

For BFI to work the panel needs to actually refresh at double the input frequency, one for the image, and one for the black frame. If you wanted to scan the display it would need to be yet faster, and the issue with brightness drop is that you want to achieve the same perceived brightness with the display only being lit for half the time, so your impulses are brighter than the backlight normally would be, with OLED as well peak brightness damages the panel which is why they don't constantly stay at this brightness.

 

[BumRush]

I wish we got reviews for the 75" ZD9 then people would understand.

I think people understand. Sector's pics showcase how gorgeous it is, even on a 1080p screen. It's just that - at least in the US - the price tag is double that of the B6/C6, which is already a lot to spend.

 

[Theonik]

I think people understand. Sector's pics showcase how gorgeous it is, even on a 1080p screen. It's just that - at least in the US - the price tag is double that of the B6/C6, which is already a lot to spend.

What I was alluding to is that the 75" is a better specimen but no-one's reviewed it!

 

[NYR]

Maybe I'm projecting, but I think a lot of the people who point out flaws in LG OLEDs acknowledge that they're among the best if not the best displays available right now. At this price and quality tier, buyers are much more discerning than your average TV buyer. If I could have any mass produced TV right now, it would be an LG OLED. It's hands down the best picture quality I've ever seen in person. So why haven't I bought one at the relatively low prices they've dropped to lately? I'm waiting for 2017 OLEDs to see if LG or anyone else improve/fix outstanding issues, e.g., higher brightness, better input lag, better near-black performance, better motion handling, less image retention, etc.. I want the best to be even better.

Considering LG admitted they need to add HDR game mode to the 2017 LG OLEDs, I wouldn't expect better input lag right away.

Brightness - yeah, maybe. The NIT chasing game is getting hot and heavy as competition highlights it to show the differences between OLED.

The black performance is already nearing 100%, not sure a percentage point improvement is worth waiting for.

Motion Handling - meh, okay, maybe. Not a reason to wait, though.

Image retention? Not an issue, there is no image retention on OLEDs and if you're worried about it, you'll be worried forever because it is a OLED tech issue, not a display issue.

I agree with the post above - you'll be waiting forever. I actually would wait for the 2017 OLEDs since they are so close, but I would buy as soon as it comes out, because if you don't, you'll wait every year in this endless loop.

 

[BumRush]

What I was alluding to is that the 75" is a better specimen but no-one's reviewed it!

Haha oh. *embarrassed face*

 

[No Love]

A new review category that Rtings seems to have added recently called "Image Flicker," which deals with black frame insertion and backlight refresh rate.
The B6 gets a 4/10 in this category. The Vizio D50-D1 gets a 9.2/10.

I have a Vizio D series 65" I use for gaming. Is a solid set but it's not even a month old and I'll be retiring it to the bedroom for multiplayer gaming and replacing it with a 65" B6 or C6 next month. The prices are bombing fast.

LCD's have definitely come a long way but OLED shits on it in most everyway.

 

[The Beard]

What I was alluding to is that the 75" is a better specimen but no-one's reviewed it!

Does it even matter though? It could be unanimously declared the best TV ever made but how many people have $10K to drop on a TV?

 

[Crimson_Gold]

Does it even matter though? It could be unanimously declared the best TV ever made but how many people have $10K to drop on a TV?

Time for us all to group up and buy one. We can rotate who gets to keep it on a weekly basis.

I'm actually looking into ways I can get the TV. I know it isn't necessary, but fuck it. You gotta treat yourself.

I'm also hoping it drops from the 8700 price I saw it at today. The closer it gets to 6500, the closer it gets to me.

 

[BumRush]

What does everyone expect the biggest buzzwords to be coming out of the TV portion of CES?

 

[Kyoufu]

What does everyone expect the biggest buzzwords to be coming out of the TV portion of CES?

Dynamic HDR?

 

[Paragon]

What does everyone expect the biggest buzzwords to be coming out of the TV portion of CES?

HFR support (120Hz)

 

[NYR]

I really hope HFR doesn't become a thing. I hate how it looks. Saw one movie too many for my lifetime (hobbit).

 

[Unknown Soldier]

HFR is facing a hard sell right now because the one movie trilogy where it featured heavily (The Hobbit) really sucked.

I mean if Avatar 2 has HFR and everyone falls in love with it, expect HFR to become a thing in much the same way Avatar sold a lot of people on 3D.

 

[Robobandit]

what I disliked about the HFR in The Hobbit movies was how it made all of their props look so obviously fake.

I noticed it in the first one.. particularly Gandalf's staff.. and it really took me out of the movie.

 

[sector4]

I went to a TV store in the area and saw the 75" Z9D in person. That thing is amazing. I was literally in awe. I went over to the OLED section and they still look as good as ever as well. I see why sector made his decision though. You really can't go wrong either way. OLED do have a better price though. I'm back to impatiently waiting for CES and news of what's next. I need price drops and donations. The donations can start now

Oh man

I'm actually looking into ways I can get the TV. I know it isn't necessary, but fuck it. You gotta treat yourself.

OH MAN!

Dooo it