That generation, some basic knowledge about AI, some basic knowledge about how the industry works.
Why next gen won't be next gen really
- Thread starter subversus
- Start date
That generation, some basic knowledge about AI, some basic knowledge about how the industry works.
Fallout-NL
Member
Yeah, that was a huge load of crap. Odd that there hasn't been a bigger backlash from that.
ii Stryker
Banned
I do share your concerns. But I think it will only be as you state early in the next generations lifecycle. I believe later in the generation, through having better/newer programming techniques well have better more dynamic AI.
I think you're even selling the advancements made just within this gen a little short.
compare
BC1 to BF3
Oblivion to Skyrim
4 player cooperative gaming through the main narrative in multiple genres.
Kinect and the future potential in that tech
we've seen vast improvements in IQ, effects, animation, and AI over the course THIS gen. And its ALL helped with storytelling, interactivity, and immersion.
How is it you see that the more power and resources the next gen will bring, that this trend won't continue.
I see the next gen as having the capability of marrying the ideas behing Molyneux's Milo demo(dynamic human/AI conversation) with games like Skyrim or Mass Effect.
LiquidMetal14
hide your water-based mammals
I don't necessarily disagree on visuals almost seeing the high end for a console but I do think the SW will matter still. I love PC but many console devs just aren't making all the games for PC and 1st parties like Sony or Nintendo will not put out their games on PC. For that matter, I would justify at least both of their platforms with a higher recommendation on Sony HW due to their SW strength and variety. MSFT is ok but relies too much on 3rd party DLC and they have Halo so I won't even put them in the same conversation as Sony or Nintendo.
I will definitely lean towards multiplatform games on PC but friend games will have to be bought on a console. It would be great if top tier talent like ND or some of the other 1st party Sony studios would make their games on PC too. I can only imagine what LBP with perfect IQ and 60fps would play like.
I will definitely lean towards multiplatform games on PC but friend games will have to be bought on a console. It would be great if top tier talent like ND or some of the other 1st party Sony studios would make their games on PC too. I can only imagine what LBP with perfect IQ and 60fps would play like.
I think the console manufacturers are going to focus more on controller interface and having their consoles become more online-centric with apps, social media features, and other online functionality. I do think it is cool how the Wii U will allow us to play home consoles games with semi-portable capability. Everytime I play games like Monster Hunter Tri, I almost always have a family member come into the room soon after and ask if they can watch tv, but I tell them if they can wait a few minutes for me to finish up. You know, since you can't pause an online match and it isn't fair to the team members to just suddenly ditch them in the middle of the game. That's one of the reasons why I am excited about the Wii U's streaming capability.
Graphics are important to me but I lived comfortably with Wii quality graphics and was surprisingly not jealous of the 360 and Ps3's superior performance. So I'd be happy if graphics stayed at the level of 360/Ps3 but with improved technical performance and made affordable to us as a result. Quite frankly, I'll be happy just to get some use out of my HDTv. However, I question if we'll really end up getting the majority of next-gen games capable of running at 60 fps at 1080p.
Graphics are important to me but I lived comfortably with Wii quality graphics and was surprisingly not jealous of the 360 and Ps3's superior performance. So I'd be happy if graphics stayed at the level of 360/Ps3 but with improved technical performance and made affordable to us as a result. Quite frankly, I'll be happy just to get some use out of my HDTv. However, I question if we'll really end up getting the majority of next-gen games capable of running at 60 fps at 1080p.
The Nature Roy
Member
Animation lags far behind compared to graphics.
You may think it looks good because it's better than it used to be, but even games like Uncharted have very goofy/unrealistic animation when compared to what they are aiming for.
There is still plenty of room for graphical improvements as well. Everyone always wonders 'what will they do next?' and then when they see it, what they used to think was amazing looks pretty ordinary.
You may think it looks good because it's better than it used to be, but even games like Uncharted have very goofy/unrealistic animation when compared to what they are aiming for.
There is still plenty of room for graphical improvements as well. Everyone always wonders 'what will they do next?' and then when they see it, what they used to think was amazing looks pretty ordinary.
gamergirly
Member
This may be the reason why some 3rd party games on Wii U are successful. Devs can take the shorter route for some games
Think of all the games that use physics, large number of AI characters, large number of characters in general, etc.
KZ struggled to work on the PS2, but was a decent/good game on the PS3 for example. Halo Reach has firefights on a scale that could never be done on the xbox as another example.
There is plenty these systems have done that have never been done on the ps2 and xbox.
inpHilltr8r
Member
Historical perspective fail.
Dark Octave
Banned
Just because you can't see it doesn't mean it won't be possible. Do you honestly think you would be someday playing something that you control with only your body and voice back when Fantavision or Killzone for PS2 was released?
Story telling has absolutely nothing to do with what a next gen console is or is capable of. If it did, then we never needed anything beyond the SNES or PS1.
I think when a system has reached it's graphical peak, it needs to be replaced. We need to keep evolution going and we are approaching two years overdue. I understand that some of you would love to still be playing PS3 well into 2020 and nobody is stopping you from doing that.
I remember even though I wanted a next gen soon, thinking that the original Xbox (that last Splinter Cell, holy smokes) looked good enough to last me a little while longer if I had no choice, but can you imagine just now getting away from that gen? So many great games that rely solely on graphical power to exist and become the hits they are today wouldn't be here. Gears of War would be impossible on Xbox, Assassin's Creed would be impossible on Xbox, Uncharted would be impossible on PS2. We would be missing out on so many great titles just because someone wanted the PS2 to last until 2011.
The Wiimote isn't next gen. PS Move isn't next gen. Kinect isn't next gen. Graphics and CPU power is all there is and all there ever will be when it comes to what makes a next gen system over the previous gen. Graphics and CPU power is on the system's shoulders, but everything else rests on the developers.
That's basically what we got this gen too. Games like Perfect Dark Zero and Resistance Fall of Man barely scratch the surface of what the current consoles can do. We got an early standout with Oblivion in March '06, but this generation really started rolling in 2007.
bigboss370
Member
oh i'm sure we still have a ways to go, especially in physics,animation, and AI. i don't like having certain things sacrificed for the sake of other things. for example, destructibility tends to be toned down in games or non existent to accommodate for specific AI routines. There really isn't non-scripted large scale destructibility. Or destructibility is even toned down to keep up frame rates and graphic fidelity. Animation could still go very far, especially in sports games.
MickeyKnox
Member
- AI behavior is ultimately limited to the amount of animation routines a character can run through, which eats clock cycles and RAM.
- Storytelling, really? Not even worth examining.
- Minecraft? How is that relevant to the demands of new CONSOLES, as it was made for and on a platform with orders of magnitude more power than current generation machines. The performance overhead didn't prevent it from coming to fruition.
- Storytelling, really? Not even worth examining.
- Minecraft? How is that relevant to the demands of new CONSOLES, as it was made for and on a platform with orders of magnitude more power than current generation machines. The performance overhead didn't prevent it from coming to fruition.
Give this man a cookie - he is correct.
Take this man's cookie away. The amount of processing power required to run BF3 maxed at Ultra far exceeds the amount of processing power available to any next gen console coming out in 2012/2013, even when taking into account coding to the metal.
And to those who think the dual-analog pad > pointer (of any kind, be it a mouse, IR, or gyro) ... Really? A *cheat* was designed to make analog sticks usable and has been used ever since its inception. This cheat is not enabled with any of the pointer devices. The fact that enemy placement and level design accompanies shooters designed for the pad is just more indication of how pathetic and limiting it is.
BF3 on ultra is a current gen game that simply looks pretty.
I don't get it...
Could you offer a reason or clue as to why you think this?
With more graphics capability comes more processing power, which will result in better AI.
If something new like Minecraft can't be done next gen, how was it done this gen?
I think you're looking from a short-sighted, in the box sort of perspective.
Could you offer a reason or clue as to why you think this?
With more graphics capability comes more processing power, which will result in better AI.
If something new like Minecraft can't be done next gen, how was it done this gen?
I think you're looking from a short-sighted, in the box sort of perspective.
Yeeeeeeah.... I'd wait until we hear what the next-gen consoles will be like and what at least devs like Naughty Dog & Epic get out of them before judging them non-next gen. Besides, the next gen term only means the next set of consoles. They don't have to be more powerful by a certain percentage for them to qualify "next gen". Wii was next gen in comparison to PS2, GC & Xbox.
CoffeeExpress
Member
I hate to state the obvious but I feel this needs to be said. Every gen people go "oh yeah what would be great next-gen is 60fps", it kind of irks me because these new consoles aren't just going to be playing current gen titles at higher resolutions... well apart from launch titles from UbiSoft but they dont run very well.
We will get 30fps (and lower) but the the graphics fidelity will also be higher.
We will get 30fps (and lower) but the the graphics fidelity will also be higher.
Out of all the things people want from a new generation, AI is the least related to processing power. As others in this thread have said, you hear that same song and dance every generation. The AI in Half Life 1 > the AI in Crysis 2.
It's down to programming.
Unreal isn't going anywhere.
SapientWolf
Trucker Sexologist
If anything it's the opposite. Graphics won't change all that much compared to previous gens. But imagine a strategy title with 100s of units. Now imagine you can take control of any unit and zoom in with as much fidelity as a current AAA shooter. That might be possible next gen.
The only way games are going to get better at anything is if more money is thrown at them.
Many companies have proved that not only have they not even reached the peak of what current generation consoles can do, but that people who invest the time and money into creating something that looks and plays amazing, will look and play amazing.
Everyone assumes that 1080p 60FPS will magically become a standard next generation, but I doubt it will unless titles stay in development limbo longer, or are games from companies who have the money to hire enough people to make the teams happen. Regardless, a compromise is going to have to happen somewhere, and with rampant closures and yearly sequels to many games, I doubt things will change much.
Many companies have proved that not only have they not even reached the peak of what current generation consoles can do, but that people who invest the time and money into creating something that looks and plays amazing, will look and play amazing.
Everyone assumes that 1080p 60FPS will magically become a standard next generation, but I doubt it will unless titles stay in development limbo longer, or are games from companies who have the money to hire enough people to make the teams happen. Regardless, a compromise is going to have to happen somewhere, and with rampant closures and yearly sequels to many games, I doubt things will change much.
thetrin
Hail, peons, for I have come as ambassador from the great and bountiful Blueberry Butt Explosion
Wow. You missed out on a LOT of shit, then.
LightofRohan
Member
Better AI? Faster processes allow for more advance computations at once, could allow for some really smart and logical thinking bots.
Better Story? Reducing the jarring contrast between ingame and prerendered cinematics and allowing for all during gameplay (Uncharted was close). This makes storytelling easier, but never taking the user out of the experience and being able to flawlessly transition between cinematic and gameplay, with the quality of high quality models.
Doing something new? That's the great thing about each new generation, it spurs creativity and allows people with vast ideas that might have not worked with on current hardware to expand their vision onto the new consoles. Also, with most studios creating new IP's at a consoles launch, it lends to more competition.
A lot of this also had to do with the lack of a coherent strategy and understanding of how to design for high definition systems from many developers.
We clearly see as this generation has progressed that many developers are doing a much better job at getting out their franchises.
I think its rather foolish to think that somehow development time will double or come close to doubling next gen, when, as many people say, it will just be more ram, more graphical features and more horsepower. I would say that the development times we see now will largely represent the development times we see next gen.
You'll still have your CoD's and Maddens making it out every year and you will still have your Halo's, Zelda's, GTA's and Final Fantasy's taking 2 to 4 years to develop.
TheChewyWaffles
Member
AI is a matter of software, not hardware.
LightofRohan
Member
Yea, AC is chugging along and is in need of new hardware. Its a mess.
Krauser Kat
Member
IN this thread people dont understand how graphics work and how they are rendered.
There's already too much detail in some RTS games. The lighting, models and effects are distracting a lot in the DoW series for example. Also for RTS games, good framerate is more important than anything else.
Oh thats funny you think unreal engine causes muddy textures.....
And what kind of software you can run is a matter of what hardware you've got to run it on.
rohlfinator
Member
Couldn't disagree more. It's plainly obvious that we have games that are constrained by current console hardware and not just because of graphics.
And even a game like Minecraft could benefit from better hardware. I would love to see Minecraft with an endless draw distance, but it's just not feasible on current hardware (well, there's probably a lot of software optimization that could help there too).
I wish people would stop being so reductive about this. It's both. Go play AI War, or Frozen Synapse - two games off the top of my head that have great AI but still have to take shortcuts to pull it off even on better-than-console hardware.
If we're talking FPS AI, a lot of what sells it is just communicating the NPC's "thoughts" to the player, and that's largely aided by animation, which benefits from better hardware.
And even a game like Minecraft could benefit from better hardware. I would love to see Minecraft with an endless draw distance, but it's just not feasible on current hardware (well, there's probably a lot of software optimization that could help there too).
I wish people would stop being so reductive about this. It's both. Go play AI War, or Frozen Synapse - two games off the top of my head that have great AI but still have to take shortcuts to pull it off even on better-than-console hardware.
If we're talking FPS AI, a lot of what sells it is just communicating the NPC's "thoughts" to the player, and that's largely aided by animation, which benefits from better hardware.
I just had a heart attack
To Far Away Times
Member
I've been saying it since the Wii took off, but the race for the latest and greatest visuals is over. Sure, they'll be the occasional title that really pushes visuals and is a big leap forward, but for the most part, the next Xbox and PS4 are going to be "1.5" editions with motion controls packed in, with Nintendo catching up enough to allow multi platform games across all 3 systems.
And really, it almost has to be that way.
MS and Sony watched Nintendo make a killing on every Wii sold while they took heavy losses on their consoles (well, at least for the first few years for MS) and software publishers don't want to have to make considerably larger investments than they already are. Sony gambled on the high end market and lost a tremendous amount of marketshare and watched as the value of the PlayStation brand plummeted. We're seeing publishers dropping left and right due to higher budgets and I don't think publishers are interested in pushing game budgets that much higher. Nintendo wants third parties and third parties will need their games to be viable on all platforms if budgets keep increasing. We'll see what happens.
And really, it almost has to be that way.
MS and Sony watched Nintendo make a killing on every Wii sold while they took heavy losses on their consoles (well, at least for the first few years for MS) and software publishers don't want to have to make considerably larger investments than they already are. Sony gambled on the high end market and lost a tremendous amount of marketshare and watched as the value of the PlayStation brand plummeted. We're seeing publishers dropping left and right due to higher budgets and I don't think publishers are interested in pushing game budgets that much higher. Nintendo wants third parties and third parties will need their games to be viable on all platforms if budgets keep increasing. We'll see what happens.
yurinka
Member
I expect them announcing it in E3 and releasing them late 2013 / early 2014.
- Better graphics and IQ
- 2 previous gen consoles ducktaped Wii strategy to keep BC specially with PSN/XBLA stuff while keeping R&D costs 'low'
- Kinect 2 / Eyetoy 3 + Move 2
- Merging with other markets for non-gaming app and using their touchscreens as maybe optional secondary controllers, but not for high-end core gaming : Windows 8 (PC/smartphone/tablets), Android/PS Suite (smartphone/tablets/tv)
- 3D
- 1080@60fps is the new 720@30fps, even if they support up to 4K@120fps@3D
- Blueray (the faster, bigger one)
- SSD
- Better graphics and IQ
- 2 previous gen consoles ducktaped Wii strategy to keep BC specially with PSN/XBLA stuff while keeping R&D costs 'low'
- Kinect 2 / Eyetoy 3 + Move 2
- Merging with other markets for non-gaming app and using their touchscreens as maybe optional secondary controllers, but not for high-end core gaming : Windows 8 (PC/smartphone/tablets), Android/PS Suite (smartphone/tablets/tv)
- 3D
- 1080@60fps is the new 720@30fps, even if they support up to 4K@120fps@3D
- Blueray (the faster, bigger one)
- SSD
Back to the PS1 they was possible to make better AI than the one we see today. Since then, CPU wasn't the problem. A decent AI (if we rate as very dumb the average FPS AI) would be possible by far today because it requires very little cpu. The problem was that the designers and producers wanted the coders to focus in other stuff, and to keep AI simple, easy and predictable by a dumb user.
Previous sequel sold decently, the producer asks to do something (shitty) similar for the next sequel.
Previous sequel sold decently, the producer asks to do something (shitty) similar for the next sequel.
Previous sequel sold decently, the producer asks to do something (shitty) similar for the next sequel.
gwahahahahaha
PatrickLyons
Member
by this did you mean that 1080p/60 would be the new sortof standard that a great many games still struggle to achieve?
the obsession with 1080p is so totally misplaced and frankly does a dis-service to our eyes because those system resources are better spent elsewhere. i can't think of anything in my life that has the super-waxed sheen that everything in videogames gets these days in what i assume is a cover-up for running tiny low-res textures on everything because (a) graphics memory sucks, (b) read speeds suck, and (c) limited space on disc. and don't get me started on the jaggies. let 720p be the standard another generation if we can just fix these problems.
Well, 1080p would actually help with that. The higher the resolution, the sharper the image, and jaggies become less noticeable.
Always unhappy, always looking for the next upgrade, always showing off and bragging about their new wall textures.
ITT PC gamers grasp for straws.
ITT PC gamers grasp for straws.
TAJ
Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
Yep, as resolution goes up, jaggies get smaller. If you jacked resolution way up, (SuperUltraMegaHD
) at a certain point you could get perfect IQ without AA.BoobPhysics101
Banned
Yes, but you can get better graphics quality (shaders, textures, geometry etc) and have less jaggies by running 720p with 4x-8x MSAA, which is what developers will probably do.
I think they would use FXAA since it uses less resources and is easy to apply.
What are you even babbling about?
But it looks bad upscaled.